Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[llamabeast]

You can indeed credit Sombre.

I think you may be waiting years for Dark Elves... unless you want to make them yourself, of course.

[decourcy]

Thanks Dad, i mean redeyes....

[Admiral_Aorta]

Admiral Aorta, Are you being deliberately obtuse?

I don't want to start another fight, but if one more person on these forums sticks their nose in the air about SP entire populations of cicadas are going to disappear into this forum. Quit being snobs, it is uncool.

Aorta, SP is quite valuable because i can set up identical starting situations and see how one race does compared to another both in ease of expansion vs indeps, and in winning the game vs the ai players.

No I'm being realistic. Everyone else has already told you, but SP is only good for testing expansion. It has no bearing on balance because the AI cannot counter things that players can. Also if you dislike some of CBM's changes so much why not make a mod of your own? Dom3 modding is not difficult or particularly time consuming apart from making sprites, and that's outside the scope of what you'd be doing anyway.

[decourcy]

See, this is why i am confused about being called 'aggressive'... Why are you so angry Aorta? Did someone step on your clique?

I may mod Dom3 as i said i am an experienced modder, but i have not played enough to know what needs to be modded. Maybe some day.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by decourcy

I may mod Dom3 as i said i am an experienced modder, but i have not played enough to know what needs to be modded. Maybe some day.

What other games did you mod btw? (Just so me and my other high school girls can stalk you further. Not to check if you are a good modder or not ;P ).

[Admiral_Aorta]

lol at your posts, you're not experienced enough to mod the game but are totally experienced enough to tell others how they should mod it. cool

[Valerius]

I saw there was some discussion on Dom3mods regarding the forge bonuses for glamour nations and I wanted to add my thoughts. I've now had the chance to play TNN/Eriu a few times and EA Van once (not yet gotten to MA Van). I haven't changed my opinion about cheap gear being important to the thug focused glamour nations (especially to TNN/Eriu where it's a central aspect of the nations and one that I am obviously very intent on preserving). But I have to be honest in that I figured the forge bonus would be limited to cap only units so I was (pleasantly ) surprised when Bean Sidhe gained a forge bonus along with Tuatha Sorceresses.

I guess the first question is, have the changes turned out to be OP? I would say (mostly) not. IMO TNN is a mid-ranking power in the EA - certainly not among the top tier of nations. They have an effective midgame but given the level of competition they can't count on excelling during that phase of the game to the degree Eriu can. Eriu is now one of the top midgame powers in the MA. Late game they still fade but based on the potential of their midgame I'd consider them an above average MA nation. Van is a different story - they are back in the blood game in a big way. As mentioned, I've only played one game with EA Van but it did confirm my suspicion that a 50% chance of B2 is better than a dousing bonus would have been since not only can you blood hunt somewhat cost effectively but you now have non-cap B2 mages - which makes a big difference in using battlefield blood magic outside of a sabbath and, like any non-cap unit, it scales. On top of that, Vanjarls are 40 gold cheaper. So while it's true I've only played one game with Van, and haven't noticed them posting a string of victories like MA Ulm, I think they can certainly take the hit of dropping dwarven smith's forge bonus to 15%. Likewise, I think Eriu can get by with just a 5% bonus on the Bean Sidhe. TNN is probably least deserving of taking a hit but they'll still have a 15% bonus on their cap only mages.

I do think gameplay should be the most important consideration in changes so if, at least in the case of TNN/Eriu, the nations aren't OP why make them? It's mainly to preserve Ulm's niche as the nation that can build a forge economy based on having the largest forge bonus and having it on recruit everywhere mages.

So, I'd like to propose a modification of iRFNA's 5% forge bonus suggestion:

Bean Sidhe: forge bonus from 15% --> 5%
Tuatha Sorceress: keeps 15% forge bonus
Dwarven Smith/Svartalf: 25% --> 15% forge bonus
Dwarf Elder: 25% forge bonus (note that unit currently has no bonus)

Some of the things I like about these changes:

* Preserves effective 20% discount for TNN/Eriu on the 5 gem items that are the bread and butter of thugging but limits to Ulm the ability to create a forge economy based on recruit everywhere mages.

* Cap only mages have more of a forge bonus but you'd have to make decisions as to how to allocate your limited numbers of these mages (and even if they are devoted to forging they can't match Ulm's discount).

* I think the progression from the skilled crafting of the Bean Sidhe to the mastery of the powerful Tuatha Sorceresses is a nice one. By the time the MA rolls around the Tuatha Sorceresses have left the scene and Eriu only has a 5% forge bonus to work with.

* Despite CBM improving them, Dwarf Elder heros are still kind of underwhelming (I always find myself wishing I'd gotten one of the glamoured heroes). Giving them a 25% forge bonus while reducing the smith bonus to 15% both fits in nicely (they are more skilled than their peers) and makes getting them very worthwhile.


On a different note, the guaranteed E pick on Ri has made them much more appealing than before (previously they were mainly useful if you needed a thug before you got your second fort built) but once you have the ability to forge earth boots you'll almost completely switch to Tuatha Sorceresses since with E boots they can match the E magic of Ri and they otherwise have better magic. I'd like to suggest giving Ri a base of A2E1N2 instead of A2E1N1. Tuatha Sorceresses still win out as being a better choice based on their superior A magic, forge bonus and the useful ability to use a crystal shield (so you can have divine blessing casters where needed) but it makes the Ri a bit more appealing.

[llamabeast]

Do the forge bonuses really need changing? I don't really understand the objection to the current values.

[Valerius]

Based on the most important criteria - game balance - no, I don't think they need changing. I don't think it's just my affection for TNN/Eriu that is coloring my opinion that they are not OP. As far as Van goes, I suspect MA Van or maybe Helheim (neither of which I've played under 1.92) are the strongest of the bunch but I haven't heard complaints about them being OP.

My thoughts were basically prompted when it occured to me that starting with 10 gem items bean sidhe could forge items cheaper than other nations could and still make a profit in trade. And since they are recruit everywhere you wouldn't have to make any tough decisions as to how to use them. It seemed like this infringed a bit on Ulm's territory and I thought this was a compromise - keep the forge bonus to facilitate thugging but reduce it to the point where you can't really use it to make a profit in trade.

I gather iRFNA thought the 25% forge bonus on dwarfs/svartalfs was too much. Generally speaking, I think some people think glamour nations shouldn't have a forge bonus at all. Obviously I don't share that opinion and think a forge bonus is important (and not unthematic) to TNN/Eriu in particular but at the same time I'm fine with the non-cap forge bonus being small and mainly benefiting 5 gem magic items.

Leaving things as-is is fine in terms of balance and just adds a new aspect to the nations in terms of them having the ability develop an "Ulm light" forge economy. I was mainly thinking in terms of not infringing on Ulm's angle of having a forge economy.

Also, my comments are just along the lines of fine-tuning - the nations themselves are the most fun and interesting versions yet of TNN and especially Eriu (which had more significant changes).


On the topic of making Dwarf Elders more interesting, any chance of changing the extra E pick CBM gave them to a 50-100% random pick?

[Valerius]

There's been much discussion of the zmey but I wanted to add my thoughts since I've been thinking about them recently. They can be quite a pain to deal with but the particularly thing that prompts me is I'm tired of seeing wars begin with each side launching their squadrons of zmey at each other. I want more variety!

I think there's a few things that contribute to their frequency. First, they are close to an optimal use of F gems. Aside from their fellow EDM summons, the Ember Lord and the (unique) firebird, I believe the entire list of F summons is fire drakes, scorpion beasts, summer lions and fire snakes. These aren't horrible summons and in fact the fire snake used to be quite a popular summon and was the big loser in the zmey's rise to prominence. But something that's notable about the list is the lack of any commander, let alone mage, summons. Compare that to its opposite element of water (a path that I think has a fairly comparable usage patter in terms of forging and spellcasting) where you have several mage commanders as well as troops that have a variety of situationally useful abilities such as amphibious, cold aura, recuperation, awe, regeneration, high HP, magic weapons.

Later on, you'll presumably be able to summon ember lords and you might think at that point you'll start seeing fewer zmey but I'm not sure if that's the case because of the second, and more important, point: namely that zmey are best in class in their raiding category. Because of that there's a strong case to keep using your F gems to summon zmey and use other paths to summon SCs, despite the fact that Ember Lords are excellent units.

There are some nations (glamour nations come to mind) that will still find it cheaper to use other units for raiding but for many nations you won't be able to beat the cost/utility of zmey (and even raiding capable nations may find zmey a useful supplement to their own units). Compare the cost of a zmey with a minimally equipped bane lord with flying boots and a frost brand. The bane lord is far more vulnerable for almost the same cost as the zmey. And of course if he's killed, your opponent may well recover some of his equipment. Don't like the bane lord example? Feel free to substitute another unit but I think you'll be hard pressed to come up with something that has the toughness and crowd clearing capability of the zmey for the same price point. Your best bet may well be the zmey's fellow EDM summon, shishis. Unlike the zmey they can cloud trapeze into enemy territory but they lack flight so once there they can't jump around like zmey. But I think even in this comparison the zmey comes out ahead because of their toughness (including multiple lives) and large AOE attack. It's also worth noting that A gems have a different usage pattern. I frequently play A nations and the last thing I want to do is spend A gems on summons given their value for fueling cloud trapeze and battefield magic. I think F nations wouldn't have the same hesitation using F gems for zmey.

Another advantage of zmey over shishis is their synergy with lychantropos' amulet (disclaimer: I despise this item ). You will likely want your shishi's to cast some buffs, particularly mistform. The zmey has no such need, making it a perfect candidate for the lych. amulet. Not only do you get regen at half the normal price but being berserk removes an angle of attack that could otherwise be used against you. Sure, there might be times when you'd prefer to hold back before attacking but overall this item is a perfect fit for zmey. If no other changes were made to zmey I'd advocate making lych. am 10 gems just because I've come to identify them so much with zmey.

I gather zmey will likely receive a price increase and be harder to summon and this can definitely help but I think it's also worth keeping in mind ways to promote other units as situationally useful raiders.

Calahan suggested removing their misc slots and I think that would neatly solve the problem. If that's too drastic you could reduce them to 1 misc slot. So they could still choose to equip a lych. amulet but since it would be an irrevocable decision there might be more hesitation to do so. In any case, with 0/1 misc slots it would no longer be possible to make them immune to all elements.

Another possibility is making them slow flyers that only have map move 2. This would encourage using other units to penetrate deeper into enemy territory.

Basically I think there's a value in keeping them as first class raiders - but not necessarily in most situations, as they are now.