Polish OOB 5.5

[Pibwl]

Time for T-72

015 T-72 - AAMG should be #17 NSVT (now DShK). Speed 22 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20). Basic model was never a numerous tank in Poland - should have radio code 1.

Soviet basic T-72 has FC 15 (Polish 10) - I don't know if the difference is justified, since basic T-72 hadn't very advanced FC anyway and I haven't heard if it was simplified on machines exported to Warsaw pact. According to Russian monograph by M. Baryatynski, T-72s exported to Poland, Czechoslovakia, GDR "almost didn't differ" from Soviet ones. Those to Arab countries and India had different turret front construction.

016 T-72M - AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Produced and used from 1981 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3 and 5/2010]. In fact available until today (until around 2015 - now 12/99), though from some 1995 it may be "obsolete tank". Speed 21 is too high (60 km/h, Soviet one has 20).

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

017 T-72M1 - AAMG should be NSVT. SD should be around 4 (like Russian T-72A - it has 2x6 tubes) (now: 1). It should be available until 2020 (now: 12/96). Speed 25 is much too high (others: 20). Vision should be 20 (30), as in T-72A.

402 T-72M1 - It could be variant with some Pronit Ryś sabot rounds, mentioned in PT-91 post, available from some 1999 until 2020 (now: 1/97-12/100). Comments for AAMG, SD, speed as above. Correct pic is 29257 (now it's PT-91). It has too high ROF 7 (others: 6). Vision 30 might be OK (there were developed new passive sights in Poland...)

403 T-72M1 - further modernized variant with PO-1+ gun - to be removed, or made a hypotetical "wartime" model with better gun. It is unlikely, that T-72M1s will be modernized in Poland in other way, than converting to PT-91.

711-713 T-72M1Z - T-72M1 converted to PT-91 standard. Official (not used in practice) name of this tank is PT-91MA1, and it is commonly regarded just as "PT-91". No difference in game terms - IMO redundant.

Mineclearing tanks:

220 T-72M KMT-6 - used until some 2015 (2020). Ammo should be probably redistributed (30 HE, 14 Heat). AAMG should be #17 NSVT. Speed should be 20(21).

221 T-72M1 KMT-6 - it should be standard model with D81T 75 gun at best, available from 1986 (now: PO-1 gun, 1/97). Ammo distribution, AAMG, speed as above. SD should be around 4 (2). ROF should be 6(7).

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

In fact, they had no SD (1) - only a possibility to make a smokescreen by injecting fuel into a hot exhaust (introduced in Russian tanks since T-55). Same for Russian early T-72.

Yes, we know that. It's why unit 15 has no SD but I will remove it from the M as well


Don

[Pibwl]

...I was reluctant to report this, but Polish T-72M1 have FC 25 (also Slovak, East German, Iraqi and maybe others), while Soviet T-72A and Czech T-72M-1 have 20, what might be more appropriate in fact...

If we want to be overly precise with PT-91, there could be earliest model without TI, vision 30, available from 1995, radio code 1 (some 35 tanks) and basic model with vision 40, available from around 1996.

To end with medium tanks: Leopard 2

Polish Leopards have different turret armour, than Leopard 2A4 in German OOB.

020 Leopard 2A4 - SD should be definitely more (now: 1). German one has SD 2, but it has 16 tubes, so it seems too low.

022 Leopard 2A4+ - it should have more SD I think (apart from 1 SD and 2 VIRSS). According to a Polish military forum NFoW, Polish Leopards don't use HE ammo as for now (although it was developed in Poland).

023 Leopard 2A4P - Leo 2 with Lahat missile, available from 1/112. There are no pronounced plans to buy such missiles, despite advertising in the Polish press, and if something is going to be bought, new ammunition and modernized FC are more probable... To be removed as for now IMO.

396 Leopard 2+Dozer - there's no sign of using Leopard dozers in Poland (consulted with NFoW forum).

Michal

[Pibwl]

AFVs to trucks

051 BTR-40 (Gun APC) - should be used until some 1965 (now: 12/60) (especially, that BRDM-1 should be available from 1963 and it would make a gap)

052 BRDM-1 (Gun APC) - 12.7 mm MG wasn't used in Poland on BRDM-1 (according to Zaloga, only some Soviet BRDMs were armed this way). It's never seen on photos of Polish vehicles. The only armament should be SGMT (correctly named SGMB - for all countries).
Better name is just BRDM (there were names BRDM and BRDM-2), but BRDM-1 could be. Used from 1963 (now: 1/61) [Poligon 3/2010]

053 BRDM-2 (Gun APC) - used from 1966 until now - 1/115 at least (now: 1/67-12/105) [Poligon 3/2010].
Soviet BRDM-2s in that period (#698, 699) have vision 15 (this one 20). In fact, it has no night gun sights at all [confirmed in Raport 9/2010].

054 OT-62 - proper name in Polish service is TOPAS. Speed in fact is 60 km/h (now 18), it could carry 16 men (112).
In fact, it carried no fixed weapons, only troop section's PK LMG, but this is relatively minor issue (now: SGMT AAMG).

They were used only by the 7th Naval Landing Division, not as ordinary APC, so maybe it should be class Heavy Amphib, like units #417 and #703. Used from 1963 (now 1/64) [Poligon 5/2010] until some 1991 (now 12/96 - definitely not that long). Better pic is 29091 (11057 is probably BTR-50, mirrored in addition)

All formations using APC (track) should start with BWP-1 (BMP-1) only (1/73), and earlier ones should be deleted. There were no tracked APC in Poland before BWP, apart from landing units, mentioned above. There could be created separate naval infantry formations in 1963-1991, with Heavy amphibs.

055 SKOT-2A - used as APC only until some 1991 (now: 12/104 - definitely not that long).

056 BTR-152- in bigger number used only from 1955 (now: 1/52) (there were only 6 in 12/54) [Poligon 3/2010]. Weapon used was actually #53 SGMT AAMG.

All formations using APC (wheel) should be available in 1955-1991 only.

057 BTR-50PK - Poland never used BTR-50s - to be removed.

058 OT-65 FUG (Gun APC) - proper name in Poland was just FUG or FUG D422 (OT-65 was Czechoslovak designation). Used from 1963 until some 1985 only (now: 1/66-12/95) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carried no fixed armament - only could carry crew's LMG. A second one should be added as a Scout vehicle? (like BRDMs)

059 BTR-152K - "hardtop" variant, used in Poland in small number, from late 50s, say 1959 (now 1/55 - it was produced in the USSR from 1957 only). Radio code should be 1. Armament should be SGMT or PKT AAMG.

...

062 BTR-50P - Poland never used BTR-50s. To be removed.

063 MT-LB (prime mover) - Poland definitely never used MT-LB as a prime mover - only in several special variants. To be removed IMO or changed to something else.

Apart from numerous prototypes, only 5 types of vehicles on MT-LB base were used in Poland in any significant numbers:
- WPT Mors (ARRV, which doesn't seem relevant to the game),
- TRI Hors (engineers' recce vehicle, which I'll describe later)
- TI Durian (engineers' carrier, which I'll describe later)
- basic vehicle for drivers' training
- different command and control vehicles

064 BWP-1 - should carry only 4 missiles.

065 BWP-1 - it should have the same 9M14 missiles as above, not semi-automatic 9M14P. There weren't modified in any way, especially in 1999 (the missiles would be obsolete anyway at that time). With correct missiles, the only difference from the unit above is radio and camouflage (introduced around 1990).

066 Heavy Truck - much better picture is 29169 (KrAZ truck) (Poland didn't use 2-axle heavy truck like 11067)

067 ZIS - better - more universal name seems ZiS/ZiL 6x6 or ZiS/ZiL truck (covering models 151, 157, 133). ZiS 151 production started only in 1948 (1/46). If it's ZiL, ending date could be late 80s. (12/59)

Regards
Michal

[DRG]

Thanks but I always check every sceanrio before release as SOP so this will be dealt with when I'm finished work on the OOB's

Don

[Pibwl]

A little offtopic: if scenarios can be changed in newer releases, it would be good to replace in tutorial BRDM Shmel launchers (which aren't known to be ever used in action, and probably weren't used by Iraq) with common BRDM-2 Malyutka. The US wins anyway ;-)

Michal

[DRG]

I hope there's a "Part 2" to that last post.......


Don

[Pibwl]

Would you like all APCs etc at once, or units in order?

Michal

[Pibwl]

So, here we continue with APC (Wheel)

438 BTR-152K - it's meant to be older APC with radio code 3 in a period after introduction of SKOT (from 1/65). However, hardtop 152K apparently wasn't numerous variant in Poland (I've seen only one photo, of drivers' training vehicle) and basic open-top BTR-152 would be still more probable. Anyway, they were used in that role not later, than until end of 70s (now 12/90).

565 SKOT-2 - open turret-like mounting suggests, that it had AAMG, not TMG (the following unit with similar turret type has AAMG). According to part of sources, it was #53 SGMB AAMG, not PKT.
It was not numerous transitional version, used as APC probably only until end of 60s, possibly even converted to DShK variants (below) by 1966 (now: until 12/90 - definitely not that long)

566 SKOT-2 - books claim, that DShK mounting was introduced after 7.62mm version (above) - 1/65 would be realistic (now 1/64). It was a temporary measure and not numerous model and was replaced by a turreted version - I'd say, until mid-70s (now 12/90).

567 SKOT-2A - turreted version was produced and used only from 1967 [Poligon 3/2010 and a Czech book on Skot] (now: 1/64). It could carry only 10 soldiers (like unit #55) (now 115)

055 SKOT-2A represents later entry with radio 91. It should rather be 90 - in spite of introduction of SKOT-2AP in 1972, SKOT-2A remained most numerous version. In fact, there's no reason for two separate units #55 and 567, if not a better radio chance in 55...

568 SKOT-2AP - SKOT as APC was used only until some 1991 (now 12/104) - wheeled APC were withdrawn during reductions of army in 1990-1991 years, following Cold War's end.

572 KTO Rys - despite numerous prototypes, it was bought by the Polish Army only in medevac variant. Usage of Rys as APC in the future is highly improbable. (Rys aka Lynx is a Polish proposal of deep modernization of SKOT, with 70% new parts)

574 SKOT-2A AT-3 - variant with Malutka missiles, available in the game in 72-73. It was under development in early 1970s. J.Kajetanowicz wrote, that "it wasn't adopted on larger scale and only a small number were given to the army". Photos of such vehicles are in fact known only from one parade. According however to a Polish article on Skots in Model 4/2000 magazine, the missiles on racks weren't operational, turrets had no internal equipment for firing missiles, and "according to witnesses, electric wires were just hanging inside turrets", and they were dismounted afterwards. To be removed IMO.


For a longer time than APC there were used (or still are) unarmed command radio variants of SKOT, but I think it's no use to add one?

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.

I wonder, if a plain truck shouldn't be put in the same class, which is probably most numerous engineers' vehicle at present...


Purge of Class APC (track):

407 MT-LB-23M Krak - single prototype from early 1990s, abandoned.
(I've seen it on that MSPO defence industry salon, where this photo was taken...)

416 OT-62 AP - variant with single 14.5mm KPV TMG was definitely not used by Poland (I don't know, if it existed at all)

422 MT-LB-WAT - this is probably supposed to be a variant with SKOT-2AP turret from late 80s, existing in one prototype. Never used.

440 BWP-2 (BMP-2) - used from only 1/89 (now: 1/80) [Poligon 3/2010]. It carries only 4 missiles (like in Russian OOB). We have identical unit 676 available from 1/89 - one of these could be removed.

441 PT-8 - I've never heard about such vehicle. There's no mention on it in available sources, quoted before. Internet doesn't help either. The photo shows some roofless modification of T-34. If it existed, it sure wasn't used in the Polish army in 1954-1965 in any noticeable number.

504 BWP-2000 - didn't go beyond prototype stage, abandoned long ago.

670 M113GA1 - a batch of M113GA1 were acquired from Germany with Leopard tank regiment, used only as medevac and support vehicles. Not used as APC.

676 BWP-2 - duplicate of 440. (with correct first date though)

677 BWP-1M Puma - despite many talks and demonstrators during last 20 years, BWP-1s didn't undergo any serious modernization, and it's becoming doubtful. Polish Puma program itself was cancelled in 2009 http://www.altair.com.pl/start-3598

678 BWP-1M Puma+,
679 Puma RCWS-30 - as above.

Some BWP-1s are being fitted with passive sights and better radios during refits in 2000s, so maybe one of them should be replaced with plain BWP-1 with vision 30, radio 90, available from, say, 2000.

BTW: speed of 064 and 065 BWP-1 should be only 22 (now 24), like in Russian OOB.

PS: sorry for adding much work with formations, but there were really no tracked APC in Poland before BWP-1 (not counting special purpose Topas for landing units only).

Regards,
Michal

[Pibwl]

Originally Posted by Pibwl

I suggest to create separate variants of SKOT and BTR-152 for engineers and AT platoons, for example class 251 APC.
- BTR-152 could be used in 1955-1975
- SKOT could be used in 1968- some 1997 (1968 was a date of adoption of SKOT-Art for ATGM and artillery, the engineer version appeared several years after). In fact it was unarmed - possibly only had a provision for PK LMG mounting, if the troops carried one...

There should be created engineer's carrier TI Durian in the same class, based upon MT-LB, armed with NSVT AAMG, SD (8 tubes), used from around 1997 until 2020 (move class: track), speed 60 km/h, carry 109. It should swim a bit faster, than MT-LB thanks to hydrojets. It could replace one of MT-LBs.

I'm wondering, what will be better:
1 - to create new units BTR-152, SKOT (unarmed), TOPAS and TI Durian under one common class to carry RCL guns, mortars, ATGM, engineers, Inf. SAM - which will need only one common formation for each of these weapons/teams, or:

2 - to use ordinary APCs to carry these things. There won't be needed duplicate units of different class, but there will be needed separate formations for APC (wheel), Heavy Amphib and whatever class TI Durian will have.
A drawback of such variant is, that in fact SKOTs used for carrying support weapons or engineers were unarmed, unlike APCs.

Now we have formations concerned: 214 (APC(W) with RCL), 215 (APC(W) with guns), 226, 228, 251 (APC(W) with ATGM), 227, 229 (APC(T) with ATGM), 241 (APC(T) with Inf.SAM), 250 (APC(W) with RCL and ATGM). Maybe I skipped something.

Usage:

SKOT was used to carry RCL guns, ATGM, mortars, engineers, most probably also Strela teams. In these roles it would be used until no later, than 1991, maybe even no later, than 1990 - apart from engineer carriers (until some 1996/97).
Earlier these roles were fulfilled by BTR-152, plus it could tow guns.

TOPAS could carry 2 mortars 82mm. I assume, that it carried also Strela, ATGMS and engineers in landing units (what other vehicle could do it in landing units?) - until no later, than 1995.

TI Durian can carry engineers - from some 1997

BWP-1 is probably used to carry Strela, I don't know how about ATGM (a former soldier suggested to me, that portable ATGMs were used by mountain or airborne troops rather, since each BWP-1 was fitted with own ATGM launcher).

As for now, I leave Rosomak apart - which could be included as well, but only from 2005 (basic unarmed version - not IFV - carries ATGM, probably also Inf.SAM).
BTW, I wonder if MRV classes for Rosomaks are correct - why not just APC(W)? (like US Strykers for example)


By the way, some date corrections of what I wrote above:

054 OT-62 (TOPAS) - according to vague sources, they were kept as long, as 1994-95, when former landing units were finally dissolved (now: 12/96). I wrote some 1991, but 1995 seems a better date as for now.
There are problems with ending dates of most units, since they are usually not given clearly in publications, so it's often based upon best knowledge, but liable to be changed, when better data are found.

058 OT-65 FUG - I've found other, more reliable starting year: 1965 (now 1/66, I wrote 1963 - a previously used source mentioned FUG together with BRDM-1 from 1963, while this year the production was only starting in Hungary).

Michal