French OOB

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I still think you can back off the 105mm dates as suggested or at least back to 2010 from 2020, based on the French Army site provided that they didn't list it. However I have sent a further email just a few minutes ago to the Ministry of the Army. They do allow for information requests of that nature on the French side of the site. Basically asked for the 105mm artillery used after WWII and when it was taken out of service by both the Regular Army and the Foreign Legion.
The AUF-1/AU-F1 units are fine as they stand I believe as the 105mm search as crossed paths with that unit somehow on the web a few times. I'll be shutdown after Sunday for a few days so I hope someone will answer before that.

I BETTER HIT THE RACK BEFORE SOMEONE DOES ME BODILY HARM.

Regards,
Pat

[centurion77]

Concerning flamethrowers, the last I heard of them in French service was 1982 and I am certain they have been phased out.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well the 105mm got into my head again earlier today, I should've been born a Bulldog, anyway no response from the French MOD to date except that they acknowledged they recieved my email, how nice.
So I just threw another "Hail Mary" and asked Jane's if they could answer the question on when the 105mm went out of service, maybe since I mentioned that the FMOD have not responded that it'll spur them on to do so...yeah and I'm expecting snow here in SE GA. any minute now also!?! Still trying.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Well I've just checked my email and got my answer from Ft. Sill. First I'll post my reply from the British Royal Artillery Museum again. I think I could really use the help of our French contributors out there, take a trip to Paris and go the main Military Museum and please ask someone there for me concerning the use of the 105mm field howitzer. Well I've got to 2021 I guess, I still feel that 1995-1997 is the best answer during Frances involvement in Africa during mid 1990s. A photo search is in order along with a couple of cards still up my sleeve.

From the Royal Artillery Library, Woolwich‏
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5/08/12 Reply ▼Reply
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Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museum Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museumpaule@firepower.org.uk
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From: Paul Evans at Royal Artillery Museum (paule@firepower.org.uk)
Sent: Tue 5/08/12 9:17 AM
To: patrickjconklin@

Ref. May.39
8th May 2012

Dear Mr Conklin

Thank you for your recent communication.

I’m afraid our holdings on French artillery aren’t as comprehensive as you would wish.

The 105mm Mk61 SP Howitzer on an AMX13 light tank chassis was taken into service in 1958 after ten years of making do with the Second World War vintage towed variant. By 1990 these had been reduced to Reserve use only.

The 1989-1990 edition of Jane’s Armour & Artillery states “During the mid to late 1960s GIAT developed the prototype of a 105mm light gun known as the Canon 105LTR. The prototype was not developed further but with the formation of the French Rapid Reaction Force (FAR) there arose the need for replacement of the French Army’s existing 105mm M101 and 105mm Model 56 Pack Howitzers. The Canon 105 LTR was revived for a while during the mid 1980s but has now been replaced with an updated model known as the LG1. The 105mm LG1 Light gun was a private venture developed by GIAT’s Etablissement d’Etudes et de Fabrications d’Armement de Bourges. By early 1987 three prototypes had been produced and these were followed by three pre-production weapons. As of May 1989 no firm orders for the GAIT 105mm LG1 Light gun had been placed.”

The 1999-2000 edition of Jane’s Armour & Artillery expands to include “Late in 1990, following a competition between GIAT Industries with the 105mm LG1 Light Gun and Royal Ordnance of the UK with their 105mm Light Gun, Singapore placed an order for 37 of the 105mm LG1 Light gun. Early in 1994, Indonesia placed a firm order for 20 105mm LG1 Mk II Light guns. In June 1994 the Canadians placed an order for 28 and in 1995 the Belgian Army ordered 14.


I hope this is of some assistance. I should add that as an independent museum we are dependent on visitor income and charges for research enquiries in order to support our facilities. Although there will be no charge for answering this enquiry, a donation is always welcome. Those wishing to make a donation should send a cheque made out to ‘Royal Artillery Museums Ltd’, and send it to the Historical Secretary, The Royal Artillery Museum, Royal Arsenal (West), Warren Lane, Woolwich, London SE18 6ST. Or if it’s easier you can visit www.justgiving.com/firepower/donate and we would ask you title your donation “Because of the Library”

Yours sincerely

Paul Evans

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Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US) Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US)gordon.a.blaker.civ@mail.mil
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From: Blaker, Gordon A CIV (US) (gordon.a.blaker.civ@mail.mil)
Sent: Mon 12/03/12 4:34 PM
To: patrickjconklin@ (patrickjconklin@)


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Greetings,

Sorry, I've gotten nothing on French use of those 105mm howitzers. My best suggestion is Jane’s Armour and Artillery which I have found is about the best source for determining who was using what when. It makes sense that the Marines and FFL would be the last to use them. One possibility for leads might be Michael Franz who edited the Tankograd TM on the 105. I've no idea how to contact him. Also, members of the European branches of the Military Vehicle Preservation Association might have some leads.

Best of luck I know the feeling I’m trying to figure out how to adjust track tension of a WWII German Hummel,

Gordon Blaker

Director/Curator

US Army Artillery Museum

Fort Sill, OK


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Well I've always said this was a PITA. Now however, let's just say "It's my PITA and Windmill!?!"

Have a Great Day everyone! I NEED SOME SLEEP!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

I found a copy of a IISS book on world military equipment and there were 149 105mm artillery piece in the French army in 1992.

Pity I don't have copies of every year but I don't so sometime between 1992 and maybe 2010 they went OOS with the French Army.


Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'd say we can mark that as progress from where this "project" started from. I'd almost...I would bet that most of those 105mm tubes belonged to the Legionaries as they would have need of an air portable artillery tube to support their mission as a rapid deployment unit.

Still awaiting my responses to my requests as discussed elsewhere.

Regards,
Pat

[Delta Wing]

I'm sorry for the late reply, but university kept me busy.

I tried to look for solid information in english but I didn't manage to find much except for this OOB from 2003. France however had a military reform in 2008 so the OOB may not be fully up to date.

The 120mm mortars were and in some case still are handled by battalion level recon and support companies. These are already represented in the game by the CEA RI and CEA companies which have the mortars. French army website says that 120mm mortars are currently used by artillery regiments and marine (RIMA) forces. They might have been once upon a time have been used by Legionaries as company support weapons but nothing I managed to find implies they still are. The french army's website says that contemporary Legion support platoons have 81mm mortars and Milan ATGMs.

I haven't found anything that would imply that contemporary Legion companies would have radicaly different organization or armament compared to regular French infantry units. Their battalion/regiment level organization is peculiar but the bulk of legion infantry forces (2nd regiment, 5 infantry companies) is basicaly light mechanized infantry with VABs or VBCIs.

Outside of the 2nd regiment the FFL has the 3rd regiment with 2 companies. It's garrisoned in the French Guyana. The french army website isn't very wordy on their exact armament, except that their support units also have the 81mm mortars. There's also a small detachment in Mayotte, near the Comoroos. For WINSPMBT these two formations are military curiosities, unless someone fancies modeling a France vs Brazil war or anti-poaching actions the 3rd regiment has been involved in.

and yes, the french brigade/regiment level organization is a horrible headache.

To put it shortly, the majority of Legion infantry units follows the organization of other light mech units with VABs or VBCIs, which is in turn constrained by the carry capacity of these vechiles. For VAB it's 10, for VBCI it's 9. This in turn follows nicely the purported standard squad organization of the French army 8 men, split into two fireteams. Another one revolves around the ABL AT4's, another one has the Minimi and LGI. (Former?) forum user Urban has detailed the organization in fine detail.

And about the support platoon Milans, once again this info is based on what it says on the official french army website.

According to the 2003 OOB the 12.7 HMGs are near ubiquitous and the 7.62 MGs much rarer.

Apilas was only as being used by marine units by the french army site. The current OOB has some heavy infantry units with Apilas instead of ABL AT4 mixed in infantry and mech infantry formations. I think this is a fine solution, especially if you could add a heavy infantry/mech infantry unit which has the ABL AT4 instead of Apilas.

At least the Mech Legion units should follow a similar line IMO, and the foot/truck legionaires should at least have an option to pick weapons in line with the current French organization. This is so that just in case that the French actually use Apilas more than they say and that if the smaller Legion units use different weapons than usual they can still be represented while offering the option to pick the (IMO) more likely choice.

Still no idea on the flamethrowers.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

A ton of information of French use of flamethrowers during WWI. Nothing after that though. It seems the USA/USMC were the biggest users of it after WWI as a "MANPAC" system. Most other countries shifted to the Flame Tank as it had a greater range and dare I state the obvious, better protection. Vietnam both marked a resurgence of the "MANPAC" and it's end, as the M9A1-7 was replaced by the M202A1 Flame Grenade Launcher during the end of that war.

I found a couple of refs of a French ENERGA AT rifle grenade. However most sources in regards to the initial ENERGA 75mm grenade point to use only by Belgium, U.S., UK, South Africa also Rhodesia was mentioned many times as well. The answer will have to come from a reliable Pub. or French source. If I get an answer to another inquiry from the French MOD, I 'll push the envelope further on this question. The improved version below is the one I saw mentioned for French use a couple of times. The original ENERGA grenade was made between ~1950 - 1953. There were several users of the "Super" as well.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...e-Belgium.html

This ref. (From 1991.) if someone has it or an older or newer version would mercifully end our agony on this, but what's a little pain anyway!?! After all when I see my Dentist, she just drills away when required, I hate needles! Have a long day tomorrow, have a great week!

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

I won't be making any change until I start work on the OOB's next fall . Maybe someone will come up with something definitive by then.

This does, however, point out why OOB work is a thankless PITA. The reason the same 105mm gun stays in service in the French OOB from 1946-2020 is because there is no info to be found. We ASSUME it must be wrong because it would seem a ridiculously long service life even if the nation were third world but there's nothing to be found so we either go with the best we have or leave it until we find something better or try an "educated guess" knowing full well all three options are probably wrong and at some point in the future someone will show up asking why this is still in service when the last one was used 1989 like EVERYBODY knew that.

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Amen to that, and some wonder why I haven't been able to play the game , which I believe was last August sometime . But my Thai troops will have me back to fight the Chinese PLA soon enough before the Spring Offensive starts ! But in the meantime I contacted the French Army Museum in Paris, Conservatory Dept. This is a challenge, the Ethiopian T-72AG tank deal with the Ukraine is fast becoming my PITA !! Anyway here's their website and the email did get through the "post office" cleanly. Also the English translation is down (404 Error.) but, the Spanish one works great!!!
http://www.invalides.org/

Regards,
Pat