Lessons Learned from the Rus - Ukr war

[wulfir]

Not knowing anything about the author(s) I was surprised to read about the use of the SPA Gun 2S1 in the assault gun and anti-tank role by both the Russians and Ukranians...(?)

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by wulfir

Not knowing anything about the author(s) I was surprised to read about the use of the SPA Gun 2S1 in the assault gun and anti-tank role by both the Russians and Ukranians...(?)

No surprise there, mentioned by Isby in his book "Weapons and tactics of the Soviet Army", 1981. His schematic of the attack shows the attached battery of 122mm SP following 3-4000 yards behind.

USSR is quite happy even to use towed 122mm firing over open sights in an attack support mode, and they also use the current SPAs for that job as well, just like they used the SUs in WW2.

Makes sense, if fighting on open terrain where you can see for greater distances than inf-ATGM range (circa 2000m) to hold back just outside that and pulverise any that do show themselves. SP 122mm can displace more easily than the towed ones of course.

Against that, I suppose the light inf-atgm should be positioning themselves behind blocking terrain (hills, woods, villages) , aiming to fire flanking shots into the exposed flanks of any penetrations made.

122mm HE is a decent killer of lightly armoured vehicles as well, according to the report. It is also good in the game I have found against tin-plated APC and IFV. But then again, in WW2 I am perfectly happy to fire SU-152 HE onto tigers. The 6 inch bricks can deal with them, and it clears any surrounding infantry at the same time while at least giving the big cats a headache!

In MBT, I generally prefer cheap light tin-plated APCS like the BTR-60/80s or Saracens, to give my guys protected mobility only. I also tend to get the grunts out and walk over the last few yards too, using the mobility to get to a hidden debussing point near to the objective. I'm not a great fan of tin-plated IFV, nor any IFV with tiny dismount squads (7 or less bayonets say). They tend to die too quickly against tanks and other IFV if you put them out in the open and try to fight with them. The only useful IFV have decent protection IMHO - such as the Israeli models. And since the whole point of APC/IFV is the infantry they carry, then they have to carry a useful squad size too (8-10 dismounts).

IFV though are very nice to have if the enemy doesn't have too many, or high tech, MBT. And also has mainly APC mounted infantry. So South Africa with Ratel vs Cubans say. But if Cuba turns up with lots of the laser equipped model of the T55, it can be slaughter for the Ratels...

[wulfir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

122mm HE is a decent killer of lightly armoured vehicles as well, according to the report. It is also good in the game I have found against tin-plated APC and IFV. But then again, in WW2 I am perfectly happy to fire SU-152 HE onto tigers. The 6 inch bricks can deal with them, and it clears any surrounding infantry at the same time while at least giving the big cats a headache!...

I have seldom used SP Arty for direct fire, but I have seen it in a few PBEM games - one of the first games I played (against Martinez) saw him attack with a 1944 Panzer KG using all kinds of stuff, incl Hummels, in the first wave.

Myself though I tend to keep the arty out of the danger zone as much as possible...

[Suhiir]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

In MBT, I generally prefer cheap light tin-plated APCS like the BTR-60/80s or Saracens, to give my guys protected mobility only. I also tend to get the grunts out and walk over the last few yards too, using the mobility to get to a hidden debussing point near to the objective. I'm not a great fan of tin-plated IFV, nor any IFV with tiny dismount squads (7 or less bayonets say). They tend to die too quickly against tanks and other IFV if you put them out in the open and try to fight with them. The only useful IFV have decent protection IMHO - such as the Israeli models. And since the whole point of APC/IFV is the infantry they carry, then they have to carry a useful squad size too (8-10 dismounts).

One of the reasons I've always liked the LVT/AAV (at least until they added thermal sights and the game cost skyrocketed), it's a perfectly good battle taxi and carries enough troops you only need 3 to carry even the "oversize" reinforced USMC Rifle Platoons (50+ troops).

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

On the arty issue for Ukraine, they do now or will shortly have modern counter battery/detection systems this also for now includes short range UAV's and let's not forget in many cases real time satellite data from the West. Refer to armyrecognition.com during Jan. (End of.)/Feb. (2-3 articles.) and this month I thought I saw one. Don't have access to my "rig" now so you're on your own, Happy Hunting!! If you know me, you know where I'm at this time of year!?! This is our 17th year in a row! It's "been verry verry good to" us as well.

Regards,
Pat

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by wulfir

Not knowing anything about the author(s) I was surprised to read about the use of the SPA Gun 2S1 in the assault gun and anti-tank role by both the Russians and Ukranians...(?)

My comments taken from, "Lessons Learned from the Russo-Ukranian War - Personal Observation," Phillip Karber, 2015 July 8.

Dr. Phillip Karber is an internationally recognized expert in defense and national security matters as president of the Potomac Foundation; an accomplished business executive; and a university professor at Georgetown according to his Linkin account.

By whatever name: New Generation Warfare, Hybrid Warfare, or Fourth Generation Warfare (4GW), we would be remiss to discount the veracity to which Russia has committed her doctrine in Georgia, Ukraine, and the Baltic states; where we are seeing Russia lay the groundwork of her strategy as she did in Georgia and continues in the Ukraine upon the governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania to harass, isolate, and cede territory "by any means necessary."

Wargaming scenarios in our game based on Russian tactics in Ukraine illustrates the use of militia and special forces, heavy rocket and artillery fires, and a concentration of heavy armor and IFV's in maneuver formations.

The use of UAVs in targeting for "fire strikes," and reconnaissance. The ratio of MLRS to FA increased to 3 rocket platforms to every four FA guns. The extensive use of SP Artillery pieces in direct fire roles attached not at regimental but at the battalion level. In particular, the absence of javelin and TOWIIs on the Ukranian side begs the question on the MBT as king of the battlefield.

Interestingly, Russian MLRS and FA guns attached to maneuver battalions in no small part is a significant substitute for dismounted infantry advancing ahead of armor. This allows the maneuver battalions to maintain speed towards the objective; Furthermore, the tank gun maybe used to deliver direct fires as well as the tank's machine guns suppressing if not obliterating Inf-ATM teams.

The mechanized maneuver formations (BTGs) closely resemble McMaster's Eagle troop where Bradley's outfitted with TOWs accompanied Abrams into the fight at 73 easting as Russia similarly used mechanized forces during her recent Zapad-2017 war games in Belarus. Now, with the Russians pairing T-14s and T-15s sometime around 2021, such formations would present a formitable foe for NATO forces in the Baltics, especially with attached SP-Artillery and MLRS batteries.

Finally, Karber offers several battles from the Georgian war that maybe built as WinSpMBT scenarios; either from the Russian or Ukranian side.

[Aeraaa]

Reading this makes me feel like we're returning to WW1 style warfare again (at least concerning equal "tier" opponents...)

[Suhiir]

There are still a lot of Springfield 03's and Mauser 98's around, not to mention a few air forces still use P-51's as their main fighter.

[Paulus_PAK]

Referring to the incident at Zyelenpilye, apparently ukrainian units cought there were battalion sized battlegroup from 79th Airborne Brigade and a battalion detached from the 24th Mechanized Brigade. Both units were reportedly cought in the open by the Grad barrage, losing (in 3 minutes!) 35 dead, 93 wounded, 30 combat vehicles including tanks, ifv's and apc's.
Word of warning about question of units size during ukraninian conflict - official designations should be treated as rather misleading. Usually units operated not fully completed, understrenght both in terms of manpower and equipment.
Generally lessons from war in Ukraina can be boiled down to few things:
1 Artillery, augmented with uav's recon (Russians/separatists reportedly had used more than 10 types of uav's) IS THE KING of battlefield. Especially rocket artillery using thermobaric and cluster ammunition. Static defenses were useless against concentrated barrages, APC's and older IFV's (BMP1/2) were not protected enough against submunitions and even shrapnels, even tanks were vulnerable. Units cought under barrages were suffering loses causing the combat-incapable.
I can find some precise data, but reaction times of russian regular rocket artillery units were apparently shocking to american observers.
2 Tank are practically impervious to infantry light AT weaponry. Even DC warheads don't guarantee an effective attack. Top-attack is the way to go, but with proliferation of active defense systems, it will be rendered ineffective too. The best way to destroy a tank is to use an another tank. But when Russian used their T-72B3's and T-90's (the latter in a very limited way) they proved superior to ukrainian T-64/T-64BM Bulats. From reports it looks that russian passive defense systems on tanks rendered all ukrainian ATGM arsenal ineffective.
3 UAV's (especially smaller ones) are surprisingly resistant to the AA fire. Ukrainians usually were engaging russian uav's using 14,5mm, 23mm and 30mm autocannons with very little success. MANPADS and SAM's are also not very effective due to uav's low radar and ir signature. On the other side, Russians very effectively used electronic warfare (GPS spoofing or jamming and other means) against few ukrainian uav's being used (sometimes these were simple commercial uav's fitted with cameras).

[Suhiir]

Artillery has been the bane of infantry in the open since the invention of the airburst. But as has been seen time and again it's fairly useless vs well entrenched ones.

Might be the Russians weren't so dumb after all keeping anti-tank guns!

Yeah, the ability of WinSPMBT to blow UAVs out of the air has long been something of an issue for me. I really think size 0 observation aircraft units shouldn't draw MANPADs. But at least the code was changed so they no longer get blasted by Area SAMs.