Merkava invincible?

[Imp]

It’s vital to take out the infantry screen first and ignore the tanks otherwise your infantry won’t get close.
Fairly open map Israel has balanced combat team.
Infantry around 500m in front of vehicles, they have higher experience will spot the enemy before can close for RPG range.
If they took Mech infantry armed with 2lmg, APCs have multiple MG to, Merk can be set to engage infantry at say 400m but add its firepower in player turn vs infantry.

Iran therefore try not to engage piecemeal need the overwhelming numbers or the firepower coming your way will decimate the troops. Smoke still helps versus infantry eyes if bump heads piecemeal could try dropping and falling back.

Iran needs to think, flank shot possibility will they avoid cluttered areas manovering allowing for flank shots. Could be worth while keeping a platoon or 2 of infantry as spotters for your tanks. They enter hex to check LOS for your tanks who are playing a sniping game against the APCs, tanks roll is very much aid the infantry by taking out there’s and supporting vehicles.
Avoid the Merks unless flank shot possibility or infantry has closed to range and need all the help they can get.
Keep in mind Israel may become vulnerable if try to sweep round in an effort to destroy running troops, the one problem they have is being overwhelmed.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Imp

It’s vital to take out the infantry screen first and ignore the tanks otherwise your infantry won’t get close.
Fairly open map Israel has balanced combat team.
Infantry around 500m in front of vehicles, they have higher experience will spot the enemy before can close for RPG range.
If they took Mech infantry armed with 2lmg, APCs have multiple MG to, Merk can be set to engage infantry at say 400m but add its firepower in player turn vs infantry.

Iran therefore try not to engage piecemeal need the overwhelming numbers or the firepower coming your way will decimate the troops. Smoke still helps versus infantry eyes if bump heads piecemeal could try dropping and falling back.

Iran needs to think, flank shot possibility will they avoid cluttered areas manovering allowing for flank shots. Could be worth while keeping a platoon or 2 of infantry as spotters for your tanks. They enter hex to check LOS for your tanks who are playing a sniping game against the APCs, tanks roll is very much aid the infantry by taking out there’s and supporting vehicles.
Avoid the Merks unless flank shot possibility or infantry has closed to range and need all the help they can get.
Keep in mind Israel may become vulnerable if try to sweep round in an effort to destroy running troops, the one problem they have is being overwhelmed.

Thanks!!!

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Imp

It’s vital to take out the infantry screen first and ignore the tanks otherwise your infantry won’t get close.
Fairly open map Israel has balanced combat team.
Infantry around 500m in front of vehicles, they have higher experience will spot the enemy before can close for RPG range.
If they took Mech infantry armed with 2lmg, APCs have multiple MG to, Merk can be set to engage infantry at say 400m but add its firepower in player turn vs infantry.

Iran therefore try not to engage piecemeal need the overwhelming numbers or the firepower coming your way will decimate the troops. Smoke still helps versus infantry eyes if bump heads piecemeal could try dropping and falling back.

Iran needs to think, flank shot possibility will they avoid cluttered areas manovering allowing for flank shots. Could be worth while keeping a platoon or 2 of infantry as spotters for your tanks. They enter hex to check LOS for your tanks who are playing a sniping game against the APCs, tanks roll is very much aid the infantry by taking out there’s and supporting vehicles.
Avoid the Merks unless flank shot possibility or infantry has closed to range and need all the help they can get.
Keep in mind Israel may become vulnerable if try to sweep round in an effort to destroy running troops, the one problem they have is being overwhelmed.

Israeli armor - the Merks - have a decided weakness in their rear due to the rear hatch for infantry mounts or crew rescue. Also, she may store additional rounds in that rear compartment. An infantry AT shot there could be devastating.

[Imp]

Originally Posted by shahadi

Israeli armor - the Merks - have a decided weakness in their rear due to the rear hatch for infantry mounts or crew rescue. Also, she may store additional rounds in that rear compartment. An infantry AT shot there could be devastating.

You come out with some odd statements at times, said need rear or flank shots, also mentioned if complacent and leave it open it’s a big vulnerability.
Normal operations not really every tank is weak in the rear and has weak spots, most due to engine and cooling needs. Check this but pretty sure more Abrams have been disabled by errant 30mm fire from Bradley’s to the rear than enemy fire.
The hatch is no worse may be better it’s inset you would have to be in the rear 30 degree arc or so not just behind it to target it.

On your American Armor is best occurred to me from European tank trials either the US tankers are a bit slower or the tank is at acquiring targets. My guess Leopard target acquisition is faster as the highest ranking countries are in them. Sad to say as I am British the once dominant Challenger needs upgrading in this area and a new gun from their results.

Not a lot in it I am sure but peer to peer combat I would like to be in the tank with the ability to get off the first aimed shot.

Israel are looking like they will be the first country with full buttoned up capability once R&D is done, hopefully they don’t come to rely on the sensors to much so they can still operate when they are damaged.
They are plastering the tank with sensors in an effort to locate and kill targets as fast as possible, info relayed by battle net, computer takes over and fires if targeting computer is idle.
Already have to a degree but want better coverage (radar?) and even faster response, currently they have to press one button for the computer to take over and return fire.
Part of this is camera tracking linked to helmets as used on top line fighter planes so infantry friend foe detection (slow compared to vehicles) can be sped up and to prevent tank commanders becoming sniper magnets when they stick their heads out.

[Aeraaa]

Originally Posted by Imp

Israel are looking like they will be the first country with full buttoned up capability once R&D is done, hopefully they don’t come to rely on the sensors to much so they can still operate when they are damaged.

Isn't Armata the first tank with this trait?

[shahadi]

Originally Posted by Imp

You come out with some odd statements at times, said need rear or flank shots, also mentioned if complacent and leave it open it’s a big vulnerability.
Normal operations not really every tank is weak in the rear and has weak spots, most due to engine and cooling needs. Check this but pretty sure more Abrams have been disabled by errant 30mm fire from Bradley’s to the rear than enemy fire.
The hatch is no worse may be better it’s inset you would have to be in the rear 30 degree arc or so not just behind it to target it.

On your American Armor is best occurred to me from European tank trials either the US tankers are a bit slower or the tank is at acquiring targets. My guess Leopard target acquisition is faster as the highest ranking countries are in them. Sad to say as I am British the once dominant Challenger needs upgrading in this area and a new gun from their results.

Not a lot in it I am sure but peer to peer combat I would like to be in the tank with the ability to get off the first aimed shot.

Israel are looking like they will be the first country with full buttoned up capability once R&D is done, hopefully they don’t come to rely on the sensors to much so they can still operate when they are damaged.
They are plastering the tank with sensors in an effort to locate and kill targets as fast as possible, info relayed by battle net, computer takes over and fires if targeting computer is idle.
Already have to a degree but want better coverage (radar?) and even faster response, currently they have to press one button for the computer to take over and return fire.
Part of this is camera tracking linked to helmets as used on top line fighter planes so infantry friend foe detection (slow compared to vehicles) can be sped up and to prevent tank commanders becoming sniper magnets when they stick their heads out.

Where is Gingertanker?

[Suhiir]

Another thing to remember about suppressing non-entrenched infantry ... machineguns and mortars are your friends!

It can also be worthwhile to sometimes use cheap APCs as bait for enemy armor, both to locate it and draw it's fire before you move other units to actually enguage it.

[Suhiir]

Given that modern turrets tend to use a power traverse I doubt if the speed of the traverse is much of an issue any more, unless you're looking at older models that don't have it. But even so I don't believe it's an issue in WinSPMBT as the turns are long enough a few seconds one way or the other doesn't matter.

[gingertanker]

"Invincible"

No, they are not, neither in real life or in WinSPMBT. They are damned tough beasts though. Yes - if you are trying to kill a Merkava 4 with soviet 1970s or 1980s tech you will have issues. Let me generally comment on capabilities as much as I can while maintaining OPSEC:

1) Protection: A Merkava 4 is incredibly solid at the front. We are talking about stopping Kornets. Like all tanks the sides and rear are significantly less well armored. How much so? I do not know exactly and if I did I would not divulge online to strangers. As for the rear door being a weakpoint, I would not bet on it being any worse than most rear armor on tanks. That clamshell is very think indeed. RPG-7 older models proof more or less...
The active protection system is double and triple combat proven and works very well and if it knocks your ATGMs out of the sky in game, well that's what it does IRL...

2) Sensors - as mentioned the MK.4 took sensors to a new level and future variants will be better. Night time and smoke, other than specific types, are completely irrelevant, we are talking about practically night as day.

Vague but relevant: to a degree the sensory capabilities are under represented in game, and IRL you would see Merkava 3 and 4 units being even faster in hunter-killer mode...I really am sorry for being vague about this but it is simply top secret stuff. Just know that the game actually gives you a bit of a discount on how well Merkava can deal with ATGMs and other major threats.

Now despite all of this Merkavas were and will be knocked out both IRL and in game.

I would propose always preventing your high cost hi tech ATGMs from firing on their own. Hide them and use them only on the flanks of the Merkava. Even better - on the rear. If you let a company of tanks, any tanks, catch a whiff of you as an ATGM based force before you can spring a trap from the flanks - you will suffer IRL and in game.

Let me paint a picture of what happens with OPSEC in mind:

A company of tanks is traveling when they are unwisely engaged by ATGMs from the front at max ranges (let's say 3000m). At this point the APS will protect the front tank. More over it is extremely likely that the front tank will ID the general location or even specific location of the ATGM. The info will be shared nearly instantly via the combat management system. The company will pop smoke and find a position line it can "work" from. Now 11 120mm tanks firing APAM are going to be employed against an ATGM which is a soft target. IRL this includes top attack capability...This is a very bad situation for the ATGMs. They will be suppressed and destroyed eventually. And this is ignoring the tank company will usually have mortar/UAV/helicopter/NLOS support.


HOWEVER:

If Mr. ATGM waits for these 11 tanks to show their sides, and Mr. ATGM and his friends fire at once and use maybe some artillery to supress the tank commanders, the first volley can maybe destroy one or two tanks. At the least it sends the unit into chaos as artillery forces them to button up. The ATGMs should now run the heck away and re position. Their initial positions should be such that allow this to be done out of LOS of their ambushed target. They can re-position and repeat. Even if the tanks are not all killed, doing this will delay their advance because they will look for positions, spread out, than fail to find what to shoot at, so they will again form a formation more friendly to moving forward, and repeat...

Naturally, there are no assurances when the tanks happen to be Merkava 4 with good teams(Or any world class MBT with good teams).

[jivemi]

Originally Posted by gingertanker

"Invincible"


Protection: A Merkava 4 is incredibly solid at the front. We are talking about stopping Kornets. Like all tanks the sides and rear are significantly less well armored.

You can say that again. And not "just" missiles but APCR from a 125mm Russian tank cannon (125mm Gun 05) with average PEN of 96 within 650 meters. It goes below the Merkava 4M's frontal threshold of 88 on the turret at 850 meters though, and therein lies a tale:

In a campaign scenario set in 2018, an advance against Russia, a Merkava had come to the last 50 meters of a shelterig gully which had a "keyhole" LOS passing obliquely just forward of a platoon each of what must have been T-80UMs and T-72BIMs about a kilometer away. I'd done this 'cuz a BMP or some other AFV a short distance from the exit was preventing infantry from advancing beyond said gully.

So the Merk blows away the vehicle, no problem, and then backs up (?!) to allow easier passage of infantry. Unfortunately I either hadn't set its facing properly or the reverse algorithm considers obstructing terrain and units. Whatever.

In any event, instead of backing up through the gully it popped back onto an adjacent hex 5 meters higher in full (thermally assisted) view of most enemy armor. Nothing to do but sit and watch in vicarious horror as perhaps 6 or 7 sabot spikes and 3 or 4 Invar missiles smashed into the turret, maybe 10 or 11 shots in all.

Incredibly there was no damage at all, just moderate suppression. Being at higher elevation than the firing units was what saved it, since the hull is 10cm thinner up front. (Who was it that said being hull down doesn't make any difference? Me? Never mind!)

The point being that Merkavas are tough nuts to crack. And next time I'll just turn tail while going back through a gully .