A thought on the Talisman / Live on Pay-Per-View: Geo vs. Fyron

[spoon]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Most games get balance changes? I don't play many other games, so I will have to accept this contention at face value Fyron.

They don't. Most GOOD multiplayer games, however, do receive additional balancing tweaks after release.

Claiming that most people don't play mods is completely irrelevant.

If he was talking about single player games, yes, it would be. But making a mod has an impact on the number of people you can play against, so it is an important consideration. Decreasing the pool of available players can lead to stagnation.

Most people that buy a game don't even bother to download patches for them. What does that prove?

That most people aren't hardcore gamers.

The simple fact is that balance is subjective.

Not strictly true, I think it is quantifiable to a point. However, MM doesn't track multiplayer games so it doesn't collect the data it would need make an informed decision on balance tweaks. However, some of the balance issues are big enough that I'm surprised they haven't been addressed.

No, Malfador doesn't have to make everyone happy. It wouldn't even be possible even if they wanted to. But if the result of a change is a just a different group of unhappy people what's the point of the change?

Art for art's sake, maybe? The game isn't perfectly balanced, though , so a lot of the choices that you appear to have aren't valid (in a competitive game). Making more choices available makes the game more robust, and therefore "better". If the happiness quotient stays the same, as you argue, then why not strive for perfection?

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by spoon:
Art for art's sake, maybe? The game isn't perfectly balanced, though , so a lot of the choices that you appear to have aren't valid (in a competitive game). Making more choices available makes the game more robust, and therefore "better". If the happiness quotient stays the same, as you argue, then why not strive for perfection?

Why not? Frankly because there is no incentive for Malfador as a business to strive for perfection. I can't deny perfection as a noble goal. However, I think giving players the tools to make their own view of perfection is a perfectly acceptable method of acchieving that goal.

When you get down to it Malfador is a business. If the game was so hopelessly flawed that I did not feel I had gotten my money's worth out of it I could totally agree with you and even Fyron. But frankly I have gotten much more then I could or should expect to get out of a game I paid 40 bucks for. Even 80 if you count the Gold Version.

If something about the game bothers me enough I try to make a case to have it changed. Either it does or it doesn't get changed. Fortuntly at least for me the flaws I see with SEIV are not game stoppers. Even parts that are as goobered up as intel and mines are playable. They just aren't as deep as I would like. The weapon balance issue I see as such a non-issue. Mainly because I don't think it's that bad, and also because it's so user customizable.

The kind of changes I would like to see done are more fundamental then could be done in a simple balance tweak. A lot are more extensive then could be expected even in a patch. They require a new Version entirely. So for me it's more of a priority that Malfador start on SE5 then get tied up on an endless, and ultimatly futile search for perfection.

You say it's more of a factor for multiplayer games. I am sorry I don't get this at all. For me playing against a human isn't at all about what weapons I choose, but about the tactics and execution, building an empire, and then watching it get destroyed, or destroying my enemies if I am able. To me it's almost irrelevant what weapons are used.

I guess I have a little brain cause for me it's all I can do to maintain my empire at it's peak. If I had to think too hard to decide what guns were best to put on my ships...

But hey, here's an idea!

Why don't you and Fyron take it upon yourself to acchieve the perfection? Make the mythical "Balance Mod" that so many have started, and noone has finished. Get suggestions from the forum, make the changes, and play test them thouroughly. Heck, I even have some suggestions and will help play test it. But I don't have the time or energy to lead the effort.

Keep it simple though. Don't get off track on new ideas. Just deal with the exsisting weapons, find the problems, suggest and implement simple changes solutions. "Small moves Ellie." No hard code changes. Just stuff that we can change ourselves in the data files and test. And try to form a consensus opinion on everything. If a comromise can't be reached, no change is better then a bad one.

Once you have it ready we can go to Aaron and try with all our might to encourage him to implement them in the next patch lock stock and barrel. That is why I say keep it simple. The simpeler the better. The less possibility for conflicts with other parts of the game the better the chances he will do what we ask.

Worst case he won't add them and you will have what could end up being the standard balance mod for Se4. Combine it with TDM for improved AI and we might be that much closer to what we all think this game can be.

I am not saying "Put up or shut up." because you are free to do nothing and say anything you want. But people take you more seriously if you put some action behind your words.

Geoschmo

[minipol]

Geoschmo,

is it me or do you lately mold your sentences into bullets?
Anyway, nicely put about the mod but such a mod would be impossible to make. Everybody has different ideas of game balance. What you think is balanced could tick me off and vice versa. But making a mod to balance out the major points of discussion like the talisman should be possible.

[Fyron]

Adamant already has a lot of balance fixes... I have put up. But a balance mod is not a bad idea. Maybe for after camping trip...

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by minipol:
Geoschmo,

is it me or do you lately mold your sentences into bullets?

Eh? I don't understand.

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Adamant already has a lot of balance fixes... I have put up. But a balance mod is not a bad idea. Maybe for after camping trip...

Yes, I know. But if I recall correctly it also has a lot of stuff that isn't strictly balance oriented, but is new ideas.

I wasn't trying to say noone had ever added certain balance tweaks to their mods. Certainly many have. But the idea of a balance mod is that it could be inserted into the stock files with little or no unintedded consequences, or at the very least be a mod standard such as the TDM mod. and thus get very wide play in the community. Such a focused scope mod has been attempted before, but never completed.

Geoschmo

[PvK]

Actually, people mostly seemed to agree with the changes I put in my balance mod. I just never posted a completed Version, but most of the hard stuff was figured out. I should probably take the time to finish it.

PvK

Originally posted by minipol:
Geoschmo,

is it me or do you lately mold your sentences into bullets?
Anyway, nicely put about the mod but such a mod would be impossible to make. Everybody has different ideas of game balance. What you think is balanced could tick me off and vice versa. But making a mod to balance out the major points of discussion like the talisman should be possible.

[spoon]

Originally posted by PvK:
Actually, people mostly seemed to agree with the changes I put in my balance mod. I just never posted a completed Version, but most of the hard stuff was figured out.

Geo's point about compatiblility is a good one:

But the idea of a balance mod is that it could be inserted into the stock files with little or no unintedded consequences, or at the very least be a mod standard such as the TDM mod. and thus get very wide play in the community.

Since you mostly balanced the empire setup Characteristic and Trait costs, would this have an impact on modded races?

What else is important to consider? For example, would changing the size of a component mess with how an ai designs ships?

I suspect for components, messing with the tech tree and comp sizes would be a no-no. Anything else?

I should probably take the time to finish it.

Yes, yes you should

[PvK]

AI races, even the included ones, would be affected by a mod which only changes the empire creation costs.

All empires designed with the old point system would be likely to come out slightly differently with a new point system. Except for 5000-point empires, though, they might tend to come out better balanced than before, because the AI selects abilities until it runs out of points (or out of things on its shopping list).

AI empires which are set to capitalize on underpriced advantages in the unmodded game won't get to have as many of them, while AI empires designed to use overpriced advantages will get more of them, until they run out of things they are programmed to try to get, at which point they'll just lose their extra points.

Changing component sizes would affect AI designs. Not necessarily for the worse, though.

I think the main point of a balance mod is to help PBW games between humans, however - the AI impact isn't particularly important, it seems to me.

PvK

[geoschmo]

Originally posted by PvK:
I think the main point of a balance mod is to help PBW games between humans, however - the AI impact isn't particularly important, it seems to me.

PvK

The objective I stated was to come up with a balance mod general enough to have a chance of being implemented by Malfador into the stock game. So AI performance is quite important. Effect on exsisting mods and custom AI's should be considered, but not be a critical issue. If it becomes the stock they can be adjusted accordingly after the fact by the authors or others. But the stock AI's will have to be adjusted as part of the blance mod itself if any changes are made that affect them.

I am not saying any balance mod has to meet these objectives, but if it doesn't it won't have much of a shot of becoming part of the stock game.

Geoschmo

[ July 22, 2003, 18:55: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[minipol]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Eh? I don't understand.

Bad explaining on my part. What i meant was that it was a nice, to the point, witty remark.

edit: zpellinks

[ July 22, 2003, 22:54: Message edited by: minipol ]