Mod: CBM 1.8 released

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

Just ran three quick tests, summoning 10 tartarians every time.

First test: a mute Tartarian spirit (E2D1) with one arm and a never-healing wound, 3 feebleminded tartarian spirits. Very, very lucky to have 4 commander tartarians, but only one of them is half-decent.
Second test: Two feebleminded cyclopes, one of them without an arm.
Third test: One crippled, feeble-minded, one-armed female titan, one unblemished A2E3 titan.

In other words: 30 mage-turns, a heapload of death gems. One top-notch SC, one adequate SC, lots of cripples.
I am not sure what to think about it.

And then if you have the chalice of GoH, you would read that as 8 SC's and 22 damn great meatshields. Sure, you can't plan your strategy on getting either of those, but as death nation I would make it *very* high priority to get either, because they have such massive synergy with tarts.

I agree with Wraithlord that the tart-nerfs (except the not-GoRable, not being able the best thing done to tarts IMO ) should be rolled back. The insanity for tarts is thematic, but it should be lower chance. The price should be slightly higher, 15-20D sounds to me too as a good price.

[NooBliss]

There was something about Chalice and GoH not healing Tartarians.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

I am not sure what to think about it.

Wow, you could also have had 10 liches for the same amount of gems. Who can probably beat your rag tag army of 30 dead gods...

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

There was something about Chalice and GoH not healing Tartarians.

There was? Could you please point me where to look, as I seem to have missed that?

[thejeff]

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

[NooBliss]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

There was? Could you please point me where to look, as I seem to have missed that?

Well, I was answering to WL's idea of non-healable, non-GoRable unnerfed tarts.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by thejeff

I still maintain the fundamental problem with Tartarians is the afflictions. More specifically, that at most two nations can heal the afflictions.

If you price them for those nations, then they're too expensive for everyone else. If you price them for everyone else, those two get hordes of cheap SCs. Removing the afflictions would be the best solution, but I don't think that's possible.

I actually think the GoR change makes it worse. Previously boosting the cost of GoR allowed you to change the cost of only the useful tarts. Whoever had GoR or the Chalice could heal them all and GoR as many as they could afford, but other nations could summon them, but only GoR the non-feebleminded ones, lowering their cost per useful tart.

Now the cost is the same, but without Chalice/GoH you get roughly a quarter as many useful ones.

Good points! Maybe make the chalice a level 6 item but increase the price by *lots*? The tarts could then be balanced around the idea that they will be eventually healed.

[Soyweiser]

Originally Posted by Jarkko

Good points! Maybe make the chalice a level 6 item but increase the price by *lots*? The tarts could then be balanced around the idea that they will be eventually healed.

That would also remove disease as a problem everywhere. Reduce the use of rain of toads disease demon, C'tis dominion, and others. And it would make it easier to tart spam. (As you would need 2 research levels less).

You would fix hole by digging a new one.

I think by reducing the shattered soul 25 to 10 a lot of issues would be solved. And that is moddable.

[thejeff]

Or simply remove the Chalice. It has other uses, but overwhelmingly it's for tarts.
Edit: As Soyweiser says, disease (and old age) would be much less of a problem.

GoH isn't as much of a problem, since it's visible and easier to get rid of.

Then you could balance around them not being healed.

Either approach could work. I'm a little weirded out by the idea of non-unique Chalice, but mechanically it should work.


Reducing Shattered Soul doesn't change the fundamental problem as I see it. Anymore than changing the cost does. The problem is that Tarts are overwhelmingly better for whoever can heal them than for those who can't. The loss of GoR makes it worse.

[Jarkko]

Originally Posted by Soyweiser

That would also remove disease as a problem everywhere. Reduce the use of rain of toads disease demon, C'tis dominion, and others. And it would make it easier to tart spam. (As you would need 2 research levels less).

Rain of toads is an early/mid game spell, which you do to destroy income (the disease is a slightly benefical side effect). Disease demon doesn't properly work. MA C'tis (together with EA C'tis) is one of the nations hit most hard by tarts being useless now, so if they could spam tarts, so much better for them. With the exception of making tarts spammable, all the other things can already now be fixed with Fairie Queens; in effect making the chalice non-unique would just affect tarts and other undeads compared to the situation now.

But you are right. Fixing by making chalice non-unique would dig up new, even more horrible problems. Then again, I really meant making the price of the chalice *lots* (maybe I should have typed that as *LOTS* to make it more apparent what I meant) more expensive. Like something you would whimper if you had to craft even one, even if your neighbour payed half of the price.

EDIT: thejeff's comment about old age is a valid one. Then again, old age can be circumvented already now.