HINNOM EATS EVERYTHING

[Ming]

triqul,

Do not under estimate the impact of weakening Hinnom's starting army and PD. It obviously depends on how much they are weakened. If you take the example in my earlier post, I think it would be sufficient. Even if I were to be wrong, it would be simplest (and best) to weaken Hinnom's PD even more than to change other aspects of the nation's make-up.

[triqui]

Ming

What i mean is that, even having monkey PD, Hinom would be a major powerhouse in the game. They have very strong sacreds, very strong regular troops, powerful thugs (even SC i would say), powerful mages, access to blood, natural access to dwarven hammers and bloodstones, access to Astral magic... They have virtually no niche "weak".

I think without PD (or monkey PD, which is almost the same) they would still be Lanka-level nation. Which means a solid top 5.

[Ming]

triqui,

I do not disagree with you, except that being Lanka level is not overpowered. At the very least they have the company of Lanka - and probably also Niefel, Hellheim, Mictlan, etc. Furthermore, Hinnom is relatively weak against high defense, high damage troops (read Lanka/Kalissa etc. ). So they will be at their worst in a match-up against Lanka.

There are other reasons behind my suggesting a PD for Hinnom that is stronger than Lanka's (but still somewhat weak) in my earlier post. I'll elaborate on that and my other observations on Hinnom when I have more time.

[Ming]

triqui,

On re-reading your earlier post, I think we are more in agreement than we thought. My "in line with other nations" is NOT the same as your "in line with the average nation". What I meant was "in line with other STRONG nations".

[Baalz]

Ming said:
Furthermore, Hinnom is relatively weak against high defense, high damage troops (read Lanka/Kalissa etc. ). So they will be at their worst in a match-up against Lanka.

Well, I don't know about this. I suppose "weaker" might be a better term merely because they're giants and clobber high protection units, but I certainly would not say Hinnom is weak vs high defense units. Of course high damage troops are going to be more effective against anything, but again I don't think you can make the point that they're weak against them the same way, say MA Ulm is. As this is still a thread about Hinnom strategy lets see what Hinnom has to field against dual blessed Helhiem or Lanka.

First, I'm sure you'll concede that the two examples I chose are first rate dangers to most any nation. I don't propose that Hinnom can dominate this type of matchup in a worst case uber rush scenario, merely that Hinnom is no more weak against these types of troops than any other first rate nation.

Very rapid expansion buys you a lot of things right off the bat. First, obviously you've got great gold income. Second you've got flexibility in shaping how your kingdom forms up. Finally, you've got a very good ability to counter-raid any rush - neither Lanka nor Helheim's PD is going to be much of a speedbump to your chariots. This, combined with your very rapid castling up and research means it's very feasible to have some basic research done before you need to contemplate serious engagements.

Dual blessed uber sacreds are going to chew threw most anything, but Hinnom's troops will last longer than most and their PD much longer than most PD meat shields. Thus enters the other side of Hinnom's strength - they're strongly diverse battlemagic. As your strong research ramps up you'll quickly progress through (and cast all of these in large numbers) Fireball, Breath of the Dragon, Thunderstrike, Bladewind, Falling Fires, Destruction, Paralyze, Stellar Cascades. If you wan to get fancy with communions and Sabbaths you can lay down a torrent of evocations to make Arcoscephale blush, even pulling in the rarely used blood battlemagic like harm and hellfire. Once you get a chance to really ramp up your research you've got nothing to fear at all from ubersacreds - a small squad of research mages behind nothing more than PD will *DECIMATE* elite forces in anything less than overwhelming numbers by spamming leech.

[chrispedersen]

KO,

I've played 6 going on 8 or 9 mp games.

Hinnom is strong. Ashdod is average. Gath is weak.
The problem on the last two is simply resource cost.

As for pop eating - I use growth 3 almost exclusively for Hinnom - so I didn't even notice it for a looong time.

I have deliberately tried to provoke a baal into eating a melquart.. but despite acres of trying -- have only succeeded once.

[Lingchih]

Hmm. I think, having played them, that I would have to amend that.

Hinnom is strong. Ashdod is strong. Gath -dunno - haven't played them.

Ashdod seems every every bit as strong as Hinnom to me, since Ashdod, although somewhat weaker, does not have the nasty pop eating effect.

[Kristoffer O]

It's the Ophanim and other summons I'm mostly concerned about in regards to Ashdod.

[calmon]

Kristoffer, i wouldn't attend too much to the national lategame summons. They are a nice bonus when it comes into lategame (even if difficult to cast) but Early/Midgame is the very important part of the game and this is where the new giant races rock. They have all the giant early bonus and get decent mages for a good midgame.

[Ming]

Baalz,

I think you misunderstood my wording. "relatively weak" means weak relative to Hinnom's other departments, not relative to other races. Maybe "weaker' is indeed a better choice of word but I thought I have clarified that point in one of my earlier posts.

Please also bear in mind I am talking about a hypothetical Hinnom that has its starting army and PD weakened dramatically, not as it currently stands.

Give me some time and I'll cobble up a more detailed piece outlining my thoughts on Hinnom for you and others to take pot shot at.