Best Scifi Series ever, canceled! (OT)

[Ruatha]

I really tried to like Farscape, saw the first 4 episodes but was quite bored.
Now Andromeda is pLastic but it's made with humour and it doesn't bore me as much.

Yes B5 was really good, especially the plot, Oh how I miss that one.
OT: SW2 was a really good movie, the best in the series so far
Only seen some episodes of LEXX and altough it seemed low on the plot it was quite funny in a Red Dwarf way.

But cancelling Farscape - I won't shed any tears

[ September 30, 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: Ruatha ]

[Crazy_Dog]

For me, the best is B5 because is the one that have a real plot, great acting and consistency.

[Deathstalker]

QUOTE:

"After watching 'Firefly', here are some of my observations...

#1. Cowboys in space. This has been done before, and is actually presently being done. Something called "Donte Montana" is out there on the Space network, which has a very similar cast, except that their spaceship is a bountyhunter vessel instead of a trading vessel, but very similar clothes and universe.

#2. The 'evil empire' is pretty tame. Watching the discussion on that battleship, or whatever, between the military crew, these guys were more casual then the orignal Star Trek crew.

#3. Too many humans of 2 dimensional characters. You have your self centred crewman, your physically strong woman, your mentally strong woman, your weak woman, your smart yet wimpy doctor, your old guy, your pilot, and your tough, yet downright morally good, lead character.

#4. Their ship effects are good, but any show can have good effects.

#5. The episode I saw was a combination of Aliens, Alien Reserection, Event Horizon and The Good the Bad and the Ugly.

#6. Basically, it another "Andromeda", but with 'attitude' and 'proactiveness' (something Simpsons followers might find amusing).

I heard that the show is already in trouble, having even lower Ratings then Farscape (which had a very loyal following). "

Just to slightly defend (first off, I am a great fan of Joss Whedon, really like his directing)

1) There are NO original ideas any more. Just original ways to implement them. To take a look at another genre (say comic books) you can say that every hero is just a copy of Superman. (ie. The Flash, both him and Supes have superspeed, it's how the writer/artist pull it off that is different.)

2) Did'nt see the pilot (unfortunately, worked and missed it.) but I did enjoy the second episode. That and the pilot was not the original one that was to be showed (kinda like Star Trek, the first show was considered too 'cerebral' for us poor viewers to 'get it', so the network had Joss do a different pilot for its opener. We may see the 'origin episode' around episode 4 or 5 I think).

3) Again, all shows have basicly the same characters. Compare 'Chicago Hope' and 'ER', same basic characters. Totally different result. Or even take a look at 'franchise'shows like the 2 or 3 Law and Order's that are out there. Same characters really (how many times have we seen a 'slightly bad-good-harrassed but morally right cop'?) but its up to the writers to pull it off (which I think Dick Wolf lets them do nicely).

4) True, any show can have good effects. But we as fans really are to fault here. One of the best and longest running sci-fi shows is Dr. Who (IMO of course, but running 20+ years IS a major feat). But if you put out a show with it's effects/budget tomorrow it would die a horrible Ratings death really fast! I mean, really, would you watch your favorite sci-fi show it they had effects that looked like that? (or if say the new Star Trek movie came out and you could see the strings holding up the ship {which you could in an old episode IIRC} how upset would you be no matter how good the acting?)

5) Whedon wrote Aliens:Ressurrection, so its natural he may want to carry over some of his 'themes'. Look at 'Buffy' and 'Angel'. Both his shows, both can be argued as the same (one evolved from the other) but actually watching them you see they are totally different. (he must be doing something right, for a mid season replacement 'Buffy' just started its 7th season!).

6) Don't watch Andomeda so I can't comment.

7) the show is in trouble? where exactly did you find the figues? (I'd love to see them out of curiositys sake).

Personally I'm just gonna trust a writer I admire and watch the characters develop over the next season to make my full judgement (just like I'm saving my final view of the current Star Wars trilogy till the next one is done, when viewed as a whole even Jar Jar might make some sense!)

(hope I dont sound like a flame, just trying to defend the show somewhat. Even if I did only see one episode).

[ October 01, 2002, 10:24: Message edited by: Deathstalker ]

[Captain Kwok]

Originally posted by Crazy_Dog:
For me, the best is B5 because is the one that have a real plot, great acting and consistency.

Great acting is always relative in Sci-Fi TV...

[Major Tom]

Here is a link to another BB that I found, which does discuss posted information on some Internet news sites.

http://trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/012606.html

Basically, it states the history of Fox dumping shows that require time in order to gain a following. Sci-Fi shows are never ever going to give you a high loyal following right away. They require years of individuals watching in order for them to really become fans. Having the show on Fridays is a definite bad sign, as ever since TGIF bombed, TV watching on Friday nights is one of the lowest. They moved the show 'John Doe' to Mondays, when it was on Friday. The longer that Firefly stays on at 8:00 on Friday, the better chance that it has in dying off. It would have a much better chance in surviving if it was given a place on Sunday night TV, where FOX makes its killing.

Basically, FOX has a history of cancelling shows that do not immediately show financial promise. They have one of the highest rates of TV cancelling, close to ABC, and they have probably the highest rate of cancelling quality TV. Indeed, there is a lot of hype around this show being a good seller primarily because Joss is involved in it. However, it took a long time before Buffy the Vampire Slayer became a hit, and it was primarily a hit because there was nothing else like it, and it was very well written (however, the Last few seasons have been dragging on...). Firefly may be well written, but I don't think it will get enough time in order to develop into a good seiries, given FOX's track record.

FOX basically wants every show to be as immediately popular as comparable shows. When the Family Guy and Futurama failed to meet the same following as the Simpsons, they were cut, even though it took the Simpsons years to get to the point that they currently are. The Lone Gunmen was cancelled when it did not grab the attention of the entire X-Files community, even though the X-Files did not become a major hit until well into its second season.

Recently, I am noticing more and more television shows flopping year after year, with more reruns being put in their place. I think that TV corporations are getting way too greedy in that they expect that if a show is not immediately a hit, it will never be. Most of the great television, especially Science Fiction, requires years of development before they gain a large and loyal audience.

Star Trek the original series, was cancelled after 3 years, primarily because of the same problem that Firefly is facing, it was put in a bad timeslot. Firefly may make it, if they are given enough time to develop, and a better time in which to show it.

It is amazing the number of high quality Science Fiction television shows that we get up here on the Canadian Space Channel, like G. vs. E., Harsh Realm, Third Wave, etc.. that when we get them they were already in syndication because they were cancelled in the US. Seeing what was cancelled by FOX in the past, it really does not give Firefly much of a fighting chance, unless Joss uses his clout to keep the show afloat (however, even Chris Carter, the creator of the biggest FOX moneybag show, was unable to keep Lone Gunmen and Millenium on TV).

[ October 01, 2002, 15:30: Message edited by: Major Tom ]

[Major Tom]

Originally posted by Captain Kwok:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crazy_Dog:
For me, the best is B5 because is the one that have a real plot, great acting and consistency.

Great acting is always relative in Sci-Fi TV...

---

This may just be my ignorance, but I just found out that Bruce Boxleitner (Captain John Sheridan of B5) and Melissa Gilbert (Captain John Sheridan's dead wife on B5, and Little House on the Prarie star) are actually married. Just found out on a preview of Melissa Gilbert's biography the other day. You learn something new all the time...

[Major Tom]

The other reason why I do not think Firefly will Last very long on Fox, is due to its unoriginal subject matter.

When the Simpsons, X-Files and Buffy the Vampire Slayer (even though this is on WB) came out, there really was not anything on TV like them. Because they were really individual shows, without comparison or real competition, they were able to flourish much better then shows that have a lot of competition over similar subject matter.

Firefly has a lot of competition out there. Enterprise, Farscape (especially due to the fact that 50% of the already completed episodes have yet to be released in many areas), Andromeda, that Montana show, along with the recent memory of DS9 and B5, the theme of a science fiction show based around a crew on a spaceship is heavily covered. Something really new has to be done with this show in order for it to Last in the face of an already swamped theme. For its first few episodes being very clicheish and with topics that have been done before (even though they were done by the same artist), Firefly does not currently offer its viewers anything they cannot get from any other show out there.

[Arkcon]

Originally posted by Major Tom:
I think that TV corporations are getting way too greedy in that they expect that if a show is not immediately a hit, it will never be

IMHO, the blame doesn't completely belong to the networks. Some TV shows have gotten way too expensive. Early in the run of Farscape the special effects were more immaginative than visually dazzling. Heck, even the first two seasons of Next Gen had pretty simple sets and spaceshots.

Years ago there was some show that was about teenagers in a high school. They were canceled after a year, depite critical acclaim. Basically they said at some ridiculus price, IIRC 1.2 million an episode, they couldn't take it to the networks or PBS, and the cable network (HBO I think) didn't want it anymore.

And I thought "1.2 million?!? The teen actors are unknowns, the set is hallways and classrooms, what is money for. Was the catering that good? I know an episode of NextGen doesn't cost that much -- not early in it's run. Are the writers and directors really worth that much?"

[Major Tom]

One also might assume that it is the fault of the show that becomes entirely reliant on its success primarily due to particular actors. Indeed, certain actors do a very good job, but, the sign of a good show is to survive the loss of some of your main actors. NYPD Blue lost actor after actor, but still remains a top show. Law and Order does not have a single original actor left, but is still very well done.

However, 'ER' will bust after losing all of its actors due to the hype placed on the importance of its actors in the success of the show. Just like 'Friends' would never survive the loss of just one of its cast members.

The problem arises is when the 'Shelly Long' syndrome arises. When a successful TV actor then believes that they are great because their show is successful. They then demand extraordinate amounts of money, hoping to break their contract and end up in movies where the big money and fame is. However, most tend to flop, and end up on the latest CSI spinoff.

It sort of reminds me of the show "News Radio", which was an awesome piece of Television. When Phil Hartman was murdered, the show lost a lot of its already small audience. However, the quality of the show really didn't suffer, and was as funny in its Last episode as it was in its first. The problem is, is that the individuals of shows are hyped well beyond the actual show itself.

Indeed, good shows do get expensive to run. But where are all of the Francis Ford Coppolas? The guys who spend all the money they make on blockbusters (Godfather series) on works of movie/television art (Apocalypse Now). It seems like all of the profits of television corporations are to be spent purely on making even more profits, and not using these profits to provide good programming that may not earn you a lot of money, but earn you a very loyal fanbase.

[Wardad]

I heard it was canceled because it was not canon.

No, please, put down that rock. Eeeehhhhh!!!