If you've been following along on Don's Mi-8 and Mi-24 Thread what I've done is take out the MiG issue and copied them to here. These are items 1-7. Why? If new please follow the progression, if not new to this discussion go directly to item 8 below.
1. Luftwaffe JG 73 flew the MiG-29G (NATO standard.) until ~2004 when they were sold to Poland. JG 73 flew them as an aggressor squadron but was also assigned an air defence role as well. Many of the former DDR aircraft flew with the Luftwaffe for years especially the transport aircraft that filled a deficiency in the Luftwaffe capabilities at the time. Germany just about RESET the MiG-29s to get them to the NATO "G" Standard, Hinds, Transport to even improve the depot level maintenance of the older MiGs they got. All DDR aircraft were serialized, painted and marked into the Luftwaffe system. MiG 29 and later MiG 29G as upgraded along with the larger Transport aircraft are a definite yes. The MiG 24/or 25 (Can't remember now.), MiG-21 & 17 and other aircraft though maintained were either sold off or scraped with no record that I have found to indicate they were actually ever used by the Luftwaffe.
2. To set the record straight on the DDR fighters that transitioned into the Luftwaffe they would be the MiG-21, 23 & 29 also the export version of the Su- 17UM3/Ex Su-22UM3/UM3K (FITTER-G) primarily used as a trainer and also the final version Su-17M4/Ex Su-22M4 (FITTER K). Don't know if they processed the Recon Su-22M4R.
Sorry for any confusion, I'll blame it on catching up on the OGs after work!?! Now to figure out what to blame it on when I start submitting the Patch Posts, but it'll have to be good though!?! Found none of these jets (Except the MiG-29) in Luftwaffe colors on the net to include museums in country.
3. Alright German reunification is officially marked on Oct. 3 1990 after the DDR signed treaties with W. Germany and a separate one with England, France, Russia and the U.S. as required by treaty after WWII. We know the DDR NVA transport planes and LSK/LV MiG-29
(MiG-29G until Dec. 2003.) were fully operational w/Luftwaffe.
This is worth it just for the DDR in flight pics alone throughout the thread as I couldn't find any good ones on Bing or Google.
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=mig-29&page=4 These guys seem "serious" (Sounds familiar!?!) and might provide some useful info from the Wehrmacht, DDR to present.
4. For those that are interested, earlier this evening I asked the key questions that might have some impact on both the East Germany and Germany OOB's. Link provided below so as not to violate any one's possible Forum rules. By way of info RAMJET/Steve was a MiG-29pilot for both the Luftverteidigung/Luftwaffe after unification. I won't be hard to find, currently on Pg. 7.
5. By way of an update...
As the DDR/German MiGs were the MiG-29A it's becoming clear that they were purely used as interceptors as designed. The MiG-29S had some very limited Air Ground capabilities, but it was the MiG-29SM which was designed to fulfill this role. It was this version that is the only one that could be called an F/B though again it's primary role still was to be an interceptor. Also before the MiG-29S all previous versions had very limited range, think earlier Bf-109s, you didn't want to get in a dogfight with it but it wasn't going to hang around long either.
So here's where I'm at for my list...
1. Germany OOB delete both the MiG-29 and Mil-8T. It is now clear the Luftwaffe MiG-29A/G was only used as an interceptor. Also it was the ONLY aircraft from the DDR to fly in the Luftwaffe beyond the evaluation phase.
2. East Germany OOB the same issue as above with the following possible exception of the SEAD version for which I'm awaiting conformation. This one in my mind is possible though not likely. This is why after all the Russians gave the DDR the very good MiG-23ground attack aircraft, also the DDR flew the most advanced versions of it as well which might be an issue of it's own in the OOB. I of course have other data but the site given in the previous post is confirming all of it thus far and they've been very helpful to my requests.
6. Also several East German units will need to be deleted to include all MiG-29A and MiG-29M (Which as now known they never had.) which like the MiG-29M includes the Mil-24W HIND. Below is the response I recieved concerning the East German use of the MiG-29A as a possible SEAD unit as posted in the previous post as well.
Note: A little tone change which is my fault as I should've indicated "configurations offered" or some such as my wording caused the response.
"Pat,
What you say here about four East German MiG 29s being used for SEAD doesn't sound reasonable. As an air superiority aircraft designed for air defence why would the East Germans use four for SEAD purposes? That role would be better suited to a unit armed with the SU 25 and probably assigned to a Soviet unit rather than divert four MiG 29s from their basic role. Just my thoughts.
Regards,
Gordon"
And another response I just got from "RAMJET"/Steve LSK/LV(DDR)/LUFTWAFFE MiG-29A pilot...
"The LSK/LV as well as the Luftwaffe used the MiG-29 only as a fighter aircraft. There were some trials in the air-to-ground role with unguided rockets in the DDR times if I remember right, but these were just trials."
If you again wish to follow along...
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=354756&page=7
Bottom-line...
GERMANY OOB... DELETE UNITS 307 MiG-29 & 327 Mi-8T
East Germany OOB... DELETE UNITS 580, 910 & 911 MiG-29M & 125/927 Mi-24W HIND (Never had either in service.)
Now to fix the confusion "next door" I caused. One OOB at a time next the MiG-23, if they feel like it.
7. The MiG-29 issue is dead to me at this point as far as the Germany's are concerned. The only useful variant in the F/B version again was the MiG-29SM that for now it seems, only Russia flew. Interceptors are not good fighter bombers normally, as is already posted in this thread by the guys that flew them. The MiG-23 and it's dedicated full time mostly F/B offshoot the MiG-27 filled that role and were contemporaries to the MiG-29. In the first ref you'll notice the MiG-29A in Luftwaffe colors.
http://www.military-today.com/aircra...29_fulcrum.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig27/
So far the MiG-23 issue for East Germany looks good and they've already responded "next door" though I've seen some German info to suggust only the MiG-23BN might have been used as F/B and M versions as dedicated interceptors. Will get clarification. Seems the Soviets didn't trust them much for some roles as already pointed out concerning the SEAD issue. Kind of makes me wonder how many MiG-29 slots could be cut out of the Russian OOB.
8. A couple of times above I mentioned that the first somewhat ground capable MiG-29 was the MiG-29S. So what? Well to get "here" I established "linkage" or a "chain of custody" for those of us who've handled sensitive materials. So for whom do I speak of now is this "linkage"? Poland. Poland was already in possession of about 12 MiG-29
A interceptors then Germany leased/sold their 22 MiG-29
A (As noted already NATO "G" standard.) giving Poland a total of let's just call it 35
MiG-29A Interceptors. You'll note the banner from where the following ref. is from. Also you'll note that East Germany, Germany and Poland do not get mentioned beyond the MiG-29A sections. You will further note (Again.) that MiG-29S is the first bomb carrying MiG.
http://toad-design.com/migalley/inde...ig29-variants/A.
A. I don't know the source of these bomb carrying MiGs and don't care, but these three countries didn't have them period!! But two of these countries share a common "bond" they were under the "guidance" of the Soviet Union who maintained a large military presence in both countries and I know for sure ICO East Germany there were at least I believe it to be 2 Regiments (Above ref and a couple of German refs I have as well.) of the MiG-29S.
It's my theory that these are Soviet units in these OOBs.
B. Poland did get all glass cockpits and are either looking into or have recently signed a contract to further update the Polish MiG-29 jets to the MiG-29 SNIPER Standard but again this ONLY improves it's interceptor capabilities.
C.
Poland DELETE UNITS 148 and 556-558. Look at the bright side, at least the ANDERS is back on track if they ever get that contract signed. Also speaking of Polish contracts, earlier this past week the contract was signed for an additional 200 ROSOMAKS, but that's for another thread.
D. One of my favorite killing time games "Connect the Dots" has turned into my other favorite game here "Going Down the Rabbit Hole Again!" 2020 PLEASE get here!?! Only kidding.
Now you know why I've been wanting to "type" this equipment for consistency sake.
E. You designers might find the last ref very useful on all MiG types offered especially on weapons for each type. Further the Weapons Tab seems to have very useful info in it as well.
Regards,
Pat
Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
Re: Jets & Planes but no UAV's here.
) has served to push my cut off of 1 Jun to the "line in the sand" starting now with the last of the news posts to ready my inputs for the 2012/2013 Campaign. All newspaper stories are from DID unless noted. So by the first topic I came to we start...
Linear Mode
