Recycle Old Threads Drive Canceled! - Page 10

eddieballgame · #91 May 11th, 2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
I don't have anyone to play SE4 hotseat with, so I can't answer that. I know there are plenty of people that are satisfied with it though. SE4 is very good in PBW play. It's the only way to play the game IMO! TCP/IP works well with 2 players, but gets slower than PBW with 3 or more, due to how it handles turns.

Proof means one thing, and one thing only. It is not a subjective term.

Thank you for the info & your candor, till we "meet" again.

raynor · #92 May 11th, 2003, 09:51 AM

Regarding Imperator Fyron's comments on facts vs. opinions:

Umm... the SE series has had multiplayer quite feasable for many many years.

This is an opinion. The term 'quite feasable' is arbitrary and subject to opinion. Someone else might say that the multiplayer was not quite feasable.

The GUI is not "percieved as clumsy", it is undeniably clumsy. There are too many obtuse subwindows to go through to change something that will be changed back by the AI ministers. There are too many useless bits of information portrayed that you can never have an effect on, so there is no point in cluttering the game with them. Most of this bits are not explained at all, so you have no idea what the numbers mean. So, they are even more clutter, making the GUI even clumsier. Also, the control interface is less than stellar. It is horrid looking too, but that isn't part of it's clumsiness.

This also is an opinion. A fact would be something on the order of: If you click button 'X', then window 'Y' shows up. But just because you don't "like" something doesn't make it a fact. It makes it an opinion. A fact is something that is incontrovertible. If the word "like" or "dislike" enters in, then it is an opinion and not a fact.

MOO3 does not in any way accurately simulate a space empire. It is not meant as a simulator, but as a game. So saying it is a good simulator IS NOT saying that it is a good game; it is saying the contrary.

This also is an opinion.

Also, Quiksilver's propaganda about their beast of a game is not a valid source at all. What they say is irrelevant when it quite clearly contradicts what actually happens. And, the viceroys change orders immediately quite often, not after many turns. Also, turning them off actually does not do a whole lot; they still screw up everything you try to do anyways. They are very spiteful.

This also is an opinion. What are you going to use to determine what is a valid source? Without hard proof regarding the validity of a number of sources, it is clearly your opinion regarding what is or is not a valid source.

BTW, I wholeheartedly agree with most of your opinions. But they are just that, opinions.

[ May 11, 2003, 08:51: Message edited by: raynor ]

oleg · #93 May 11th, 2003, 10:12 AM

Common, Raynor ! Do not start the whole philosophical debate "what is the truth" and how objective can we be !

No sane person would argue that games like Moo2 and SEIII/IV had good multiplayer long before Moo3 was conceived.

Chronon · #94 May 11th, 2003, 05:19 PM

Since this isn't Plato's Pub, I'll leave aside the question of fact and opinion. Besides, Fyron and I have probably already met our philosophical debate quota for this year.

But I did want to put in my opinion of MoO3 and ask a question about GalCiv.

I got MoO3 soon after it's release (as a gift), but because of the spectacularly negative reviews I didn't play it right away. Once I did open the box and began playing - with greatly diminished expectations - I found that I didn't hate it as much as I thought I would. There are some things I don't like: the interface (looks nice, but way too many clicks to access information), the ship design area (I like seeing the components, like in SE4), the ship sets (Atrocities, you are needed!), and the combat interface (again, a UI problem). I haven't played it long enough to really tell, but I've also heard the AI is very bad.

But I do like some things about it: the economic system, the idea of real-time combat (if not it's execution), the leaders (I like the role-playing aspect of them), the espionage system, the three dimensional star map (why not 3D tactical combat?), and the system maps. The economic system, in my opinion, is the best thing about the game. I know it's hard to say what's realistic about a science fiction game, but for me it has a very authentic feel. I like the complex interplay between resource production, industrial production, and the imperial budget. I hope some of these things find their way into SE5.

My question about GalCiv - Is the AI as good as the reviews say? I've been looking for a truly challenging single player game, without much luck (I know it's hard to write a decent AI for very complex games of strategy, but I keep hoping).

Fyron · #95 May 11th, 2003, 08:08 PM

Raynor:

Quote:

This is an opinion. The term 'quite feasable' is arbitrary and subject to opinion. Someone else might say that the multiplayer was not quite feasable.

Someone might say that the earth is not round. Does that make saying the earth is round an opinion? No, it does not. While this particular case could be considered a matter of opinion, my point here will apply to pretty much everything else you said.

Quote:

This also is an opinion. A fact would be something on the order of: If you click button 'X', then window 'Y' shows up. But just because you don't "like" something doesn't make it a fact. It makes it an opinion. A fact is something that is incontrovertible. If the word "like" or "dislike" enters in, then it is an opinion and not a fact.

No, it is a fact because there are a huge number of unnecessary clicks that you have to make to get anything done, but those things most often get overridden by the AI anyways. A non-clumsy interface would not have so many windows to go through to make minor changes. The degree of clumsiness and whether or not it is a game-breaking issue is a matter of opinion, but the fat that it is clumsy is not.

Quote:

MOO3 does not in any way accurately simulate a space empire. It is not meant as a simulator, but as a game. So saying it is a good simulator IS NOT saying that it is a good game; it is saying the contrary.

This also is an opinion.

Actually, it isn't an opinion. It is a fact about computing. It is impossible for a computer program designed to run on PCs to accurately simulate something as complex as an entire empire of people, or even one city. Even a super-computer would not be able to accurately simulate billions and billions of people over a few centuries of time (or however long MOO3 Lasts).

Quote:

This also is an opinion. What are you going to use to determine what is a valid source? Without hard proof regarding the validity of a number of sources, it is clearly your opinion regarding what is or is not a valid source.

The general consensus from the gaming community and also my own observations constitute valid sources. I have seen the AIs override my orders in MOO3, so that is a fact, and is supported by nearly every gamer that comments on a game. What a game company says about their game is almost never a valid source because they want to sell you their game, so they are not about to point out its downfalls. They will only portray the things it does well, and often embellish the truth so that you get a flawed picture of the game.

Oleg:
I am quite sane, and so I take offense at your comments. Of course, I assume it is a joke, so I will let it slide.

Chronon:

Quote:

My question about GalCiv - Is the AI as good as the reviews say? I've been looking for a truly challenging single player game, without much luck (I know it's hard to write a decent AI for very complex games of strategy, but I keep hoping).

GalCiv is not as complex as other 4X games (in part due to the simplified combat model and also the lack of moddability), and so has better AIs for it. They do not have to be as adaptive, and so can be written into rigid patterns more easily. This is what allows good AI, after all.

eddieballgame · #96 May 11th, 2003, 09:24 PM

[quote]No, it is a fact because there are a huge number of unnecessary clicks that you have to make to get anything done, but those things most often get overridden by the AI anyways. A non-clumsy interface would not have so many windows to go through to make minor changes. The degree of clumsiness and whether or not it is a game-breaking issue is a matter of opinion, but the fat that it is clumsy is not.[quote]

It is a fact that this is my opinion; the "unecessary clicks" you "have" to make to micromanage are not clumsy to me AND not to all.
Could everything be put on 1 or 2 screens, maybe. From what I have read, the "Patch" is addressing this. It does "sound" like you were trying to micromanage with the AI on. Having played MOO3 alot, I find "ROY" will disagree in time on some of my choices. I can even "contol"
those things, shipbuilding, troop building, etc.
as long as I keep an eye on "him". For planet control with no AI override, I turn off the AI.
It does work, that is not an opinion. There is alot to do, Maintaining a healthy planet environment, keeping the pop happy, fed & protected, fleet maintenance, & on & on. This is very close to "simulating" the non real space empire environment. As a game I find this fun to deal with. Oh, that I find this fun is also a fact.

MOO3 is also very moddable, a fact. Meaning
you could "improve" on its many features, an opinion.

SlapBone · #97 May 11th, 2003, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eddieballgame:
I find MOO3 very easy to use, & considering the depth of MICROmanaging available, easy to "navigate".

And every morning I have Claudia Schiffer and Cameron Diaz fight to see who will take a shower with me.

Roanon · #98 May 11th, 2003, 11:41 PM

Lol Slapbone. The one and only fitting answer

For more opionons, just check out ebay. Lots of Moo3 for less than 10$. Never seen so many people willing to sell a game for less than a fifth of the original price so soon after the release.

Wardad · #99 May 12th, 2003, 02:30 AM

Galciv,

I have been approaching a cultural victory for some time now. The game (ver1.02) says 12 months to go. But everytime I load the saved game the cultural victory calculations are screwed up and it takes many turns for it to be corrected andreach the 12 months to go point again. ARRGGGHHH!!!

Maybe I should make everything as automatic as possible and just keep hiting that turn button.

oleg · #**100** May 12th, 2003, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Oleg:
I am quite sane, and so I take offense at your comments. Of course, I assume it is a joke, so I will let it slide.

[/QB]

Aaah... Eeeehh...

My post was exactly to support (hmmm.. how can you

) you as a perfectly sane person here. In fact, I reitterated your points almost up to the line

Either you missunderstood me or I typed something quite opposite I wanted...

Ooh, dear. How easy it would be if russian was the default language here.