OT: Starcraft II and Elemental

[sector24]

There is nothing "tactical" about the tactical battles. Basically all your guys are on a grid, all their guys are on a grid. There are no obstacles or impassable tiles to create choke points or anything like that. Most of your spells are single target, infinite range, deals 1 to X damage where X = your INT. Melee attacks deal 1 to X damage where X is your attack rating. Defense reduces damage ranging from 1 to X where X is your defense rating.

The wide number ranges make it hard to guarantee that any given attack will result in a kill, and it's especially frustrating when your spells roll low because you only get back 1 mana per game turn. So blowing 10 MP in a fight is rarely worth the price.

When you research warfare tech you can make groups of units that all stack together on the same square. Instead of 4/6/8 guys with individual stats, their stats are merely added together. So basically, 4 peasants = jaguar warrior, 4 axemen = niefel jarl, 4 knights = prince of death. It's pretty crazy. You spend all this time leveling up your sovereign so that he has 40 HP and a whopping 20 attack, and then a couple turns later you can just crank out unlimited numbers of 150HP 300 attack units in all your cities.

That's the gist of it. I bet one day all the units, equipment, spells, and special abilities will be modded to make tactical combat as good as it was in Age of Wonders oh 17 years ago...one day. But not today.

[Fantomen]

How depressing.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by sector24

...
That's the gist of it. I bet one day all the units, equipment, spells, and special abilities will be modded to make tactical combat as good as it was in Age of Wonders oh 17 years ago...one day. But not today.

And I won't buy Elemental one day earlier.

The way you describe it, even HOMM V and Disciples I-III has better tactical combat, not to mention AoW/MOM or, heaven forbid, dominions.

[Zeldor]

You should read that, following all links in the article:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/25/el...tay-well-away/

[LDiCesare]

Originally Posted by sector24

There is nothing "tactical" about the tactical battles. Basically all your guys are on a grid, all their guys are on a grid. There are no obstacles or impassable tiles to create choke points or anything like that.

This is plain false.
There are impassable tiles.
There's also terrain that provides defensive bonus.
It's hard to guess which, since what looks like a hill may not be one, and vice versa, but the terrain has an effect, and some tiles you can't cross (barriers).

Most of your spells are single target, infinite range, deals 1 to X damage where X = your INT.

False again. Many spells have short range and a side effect (freeze opponent f.e.), some have an area of effect. However all tend to deal the same damage.

Melee attacks deal 1 to X damage where X is your attack rating. Defense reduces damage ranging from 1 to X where X is your defense rating.

The wide number ranges make it hard to guarantee that any given attack will result in a kill, and it's especially frustrating when your spells roll low because you only get back 1 mana per game turn. So blowing 10 MP in a fight is rarely worth the price.

Yes. The real issue with tactical battles though is that if you spend 12 mana (4 fireballs targetting 1 target, or 2 lightning targetting 9 squares for 10 mana), it'll take you 12 turns to regenerate it, which means tactical spellcasting is just unusable.

When you research warfare tech you can make groups of units that all stack together on the same square. Instead of 4/6/8 guys with individual stats, their stats are merely added together. So basically, 4 peasants = jaguar warrior, 4 axemen = niefel jarl, 4 knights = prince of death. It's pretty crazy. You spend all this time leveling up your sovereign so that he has 40 HP and a whopping 20 attack, and then a couple turns later you can just crank out unlimited numbers of 150HP 300 attack units in all your cities.

That's the gist of it. I bet one day all the units, equipment, spells, and special abilities will be modded to make tactical combat as good as it was in Age of Wonders oh 17 years ago...one day. But not today.

It's also worth mentioning the ai isn't very good yet, and that the one who strikes first still gets a very big advantage.

Overall, I agree that the tactical combat is not yet good enough.

[WraithLord]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

You should read that, following all links in the article:

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/25/el...tay-well-away/

For those too lazy to follow, I'll summarize:
review summary: "Elemental’s disastrous launch: stay well away"

And quoting this notable paragraph:
"In response to someone saying Elemental “plays like an early beta” on the Quarter to Three forums, Brad requests that anyone who thinks so “please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don’t buy our games.”
"

The review seems to be fair, even considerate. The reviewer states that he's or was a stardock fan and loves the game concept, he also gives a link to a thread in which Brad responds to that sad comment.

All in all, too much drama too little "soul" in this game that I once so looked forward too.
Looks like I have more to look forward too if they'll ever translate that game Dimaz mentioned to English.
Or, some company do an "exact" copy of MOM with production values of 2k11.

[delacroix]

[quote=WraithLord;755473]

Originally Posted by Zeldor

You should read that, following all links in the article:
And quoting this notable paragraph:
"In response to someone saying Elemental “plays like an early beta” on the Quarter to Three forums, Brad requests that anyone who thinks so “please stay away from our games in the future. I consider it ready for release and if others disagree, don’t buy our games.”
"

I don't see what's so bad about the quote though or why PC Gamer is making a deal out of the quote. Maybe it's just how I'm interpreting the quote. All I get is Brad is saying is if a person doesn't think a game is in a good enough state, not to buy it. Sounds fair enough. "Vote with your wallet".

It's not like Brad's making a derogatory comment, or saying he "wants his life back" or calling them "little people" like BP oil's PR campaign and people don't care about that anymore either.

The reviewer says he'll be making a full review soon, so it'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

I'll post a couple impressions as well in a couple more days. I haven't had enough game-time just yet with the release build.

[13lackGu4rd]

Originally Posted by delacroix

the problem is that Brad is the CEO of Stardock, thus he can't just act like your average poster! sure, he apologized for it later saying he was tired and sleep deprived, and of course that his quote was out of context, but it's still no excuse for the company's CEO to post in the forums as if he was some child customer. also saying "if you don't feel the game is ready don't buy it" and insisting that he feels the game was actually ready for release, sounds like "this is the game, take it or leave it" instead of "we are aware of the problems and we'll fix them. sorry we released the game too soon, our mistake".

I mean, come on, the game has been released, not beta, retail! you can't release a game and charge money for it when even basic features don't work and the came crashes constantly! sure, they're patching it up and fixing problems on the fly(and causing old problems to reappear it seems), but that's just bad, period. don't release a product until it's ready and mostly bug free, that's pretty basic. if you find the odd bug here and there that's alright, nobody is perfect, but crushing every 10 minutes? having tactical battles not work? AI factions that don't work or don't move outside their capital? those things are basic, and should never happen after release!

they'll probably fix all those bugs eventually, and even fix other things like the UI, AI, etc, heck Elemental might be a good game eventually(in a year or 2) but right now it's just pathetic, and charging money for such an unfinished product(and claiming it is finished) is almost criminal.

[sffrrrom]

Firstly, Brad isn't an average CEO. Stardock is a privately run company, so it's not like he has to answer to the shareholders, and Brad has always been deeply involved in the trenches, so to speak. While he has been known to take criticism poorly, and this is a prime example of that, I'd much rather he continue to lose his temper once in a while and still be actively involved in the community. Also, the review, while fairly accurate in a variety of extents, struck me as somewhat disingenuous in their use of that quote.

Secondly, the reason Elemental's release was so rocky is that several retailers broke the street release date. While the game still would have been rough around the edges without this (notably with respect to balance, which is still remarkably poor, a fact I've been critical of in the Elemental forums) many of the unplayability bugs and crashes probably would not have been large issues if people had been able to access the Day 0 builds properly, which would have happened if the street release had gone as planned.

That said, I really couldn't recommend buying Elemental right now. Personally, I'm just sticking it on the shelf for a month or two till it gets better balanced.

[sector24]

I did generalize for emphasis, but I will be happy to explain my position a bit more. I have played about 50 tactical battles, mostly against wilderness creatures (spiders, bandits, etc.). Those fights have virtually no impassable terrain. In one (and only one) fight, I saw a rock that blocked one square. So there isn't really anything you can plan a strategy around there.

I fought one battle near a town and there was a fence (exciting!) but there were three open squares in said fence. To deny the opponent access to your back line, you'd have to block the area with 5 units (because units can move diagonally). In my opinion if it takes 50% of your army to block a choke point, it's not a choke point. Due to AI "issues" there are never 5+ defenders in a city. More often than not the city is undefended.

You are correct that some tiles provide a defensive bonus or penalty, but surprisingly that doesn't add anything to combat either. I was all about taking the high ground in my first few fights, but honestly I can't tell if the defensive bonus matters in any substantive way or even works at all. First of all as you pointed out they are hard to spot and the terrain does not always indicate the presence of the bonus which is unfortunate. But the real problem is that the battle is always won before it has begun. For instance I found a sand golem in one of the goodie huts and its stats are ridiculous: 36 HP, 17 attack, 9 defense. The golem can kill an unlimited number of bandits, spiders, wolves, etc. It can also attack and then move back a square, effectively kiting enemies that can't be killed in one shot. The defense bonus just doesn't factor into the player's decision making.

Sun Tzu would be proud of my strategy. In real life you are supposed to win the battle before your men take the field. But it doesn't make for a fun game.

You also pointed out that not all spells are infinite range which is correct. In my defense I said "most" spells, and to elaborate my point the problem is that magic is only good in the very early game. As soon as you get Warfare 1, you can choose logistics which allows you to make peasant stacks. 10 turns later the first stack will be done and magic is already on its last legs. I only use offensive magic in the early expansion phase when I'm grabbing all the free goodie huts. So from a tactical point of view, the only spells you'll ever use are infinite range. However, I must admit that this is a playstyle choice. You could certainly choose to use magic but it's like casting Summon Animals with all your nature gems. Just not a good use of your resources. Personally I save all my mana for teleport, because for 5 mana you have an instant army anywhere you want. It's ridiculously overpowered.

I apologize if I was being inflammatory and to be honest Elemental is occasionally fun. But I think we agree in general that the tactical combat is a tragic failure that needs several hundred man hours (minimum) just to get it to 1993 standards. Speaking of Age of Wonders, Elemental does not allow you to drag adjacent units into combat so you can't set up 2-pronged attacks or battles between 3+ factions. Another disappointment that I meant to mention in the previous post.