Torpedo question

[SpaceBadger]

My problem with using Max Range strategy was with the combat AI of my ships in strategic combat. In this game I had some fairly decent APBs with much better range than the low-level PPBs that this particular AI enemy had. Neither of us had much in the way of shields, so the shield penetration of their PPBs was not really a factor. I figured to take advantage of that range difference by setting my ships to Max Range, thinking that I would be making hits on the enemy while staying out of their range entirely. Big surprise! My fleet was destroyed with almost no damage to the enemy, so I ran the Replay to find out what happened.

Our ships had started combat all mixed together, and the problem was that my ships were all scrambling to get away to max range, meanwhile getting the snot pounded out of them. Instead of firing while up close, and then seeking to move away to max range, my ships were moving away, then firing from the increased range, with reduced damage and chance to hit. Then the enemy would move up close and paste my ships from short range. Repeat a few times, and my fleet was gone.

I hope in SEV we get some smarter combat AI, that will fire the guns while at best range in the maneuvers. That may be before moving if you are trying to move away, or after moving if you are trying to get closer, or in mid-move if doing a hit-and-run with fighters - but not at your furthest point from the enemy!

SpaceBadger

[PvK]

An awful starting position can make all the difference. It seems to me though that usually Max/Don't Get Hurt does fire before moving away, so I'm not sure what occurred in your situation to make it move and then fire from further away.

The tac AI can do some other silly things sometimes. The Max Range strategy can also be messed up when a ship ends up running away from the ship it's firing on, but towards other enemy ships, when it doesn't have to. And many other weird possibilities.

PvK

[Taera]

Rollo: check "Do Not Fire On" setting in strategies, this isnt a point to focus on

Max Range - max range is a small to med fleet strategy, assuming you have equal or greater speed. the best results are when you start in a loose formation and have time to close in. for close quarters.. go short range

[deccan]

Originally posted by PvK:
An awful starting position can make all the difference. It seems to me though that usually Max/Don't Get Hurt does fire before moving away, so I'm not sure what occurred in your situation to make it move and then fire from further away.

No, I've seen this too. Ships on Max run away, THEN shoot. Ridiculous.

[oleg]

Targeting selection can also affect ship firing/movement order. Unless you use "nearest, nearest..." ships may try to reach some far away ship and fire after movement. Sometimes it can give the impression "run away and then fire".

[spoon]

Originally posted by PvK:
If someone runs more tests, try adding a Shield Depleter as the first weapon on non-NSP ships.

My thinking on this is that if they all had equal amounts of shield depleting, then there would be no difference between performance. Thinking about it now, though, I wouldn't be surprised if Torp Ships got a greater bonus out of it... I'll give it a go.

Originally posted by PvK:

Ships with greater than 1-turn reload times should use Max Range with secondary strategy "don't get hurt", so they don't stick around to get killed while recharging weapons.
PvK

I thought that "don't get hurt" was the default behaviour if you didn't have a weapon to fire. Does actually setting the secondary strat to "Don't Get Hurt" do anything for ships with higher reloads?

[oleg]

Originally posted by spoon:
I thought that "don't get hurt" was the default behaviour if you didn't have a weapon to fire. Does actually setting the secondary strat to "Don't Get Hurt" do anything for ships with higher reloads?

IIRC, the "RAM !!!" affects ship movement during the reload.

[PvK]

If you don't use "Don't Get Hurt" as secondary, then ships will hover at the indicated range even when their weapons aren't ready. I believe this is true regardless of rate of fire.

Oleg, I bet you're right about the firing order. I think if you specify "Nearest" (or, say,
"Has Weapons/Nearest") as firing priority, with Max/DGH, they'll fire before backing off.

What I hate though is when it fires and backs off, but backs off towards a bunch of enemies, when there is a clearly better way to move way from all foes.

PvK

[Fyron]

PvK:
Regardless of your extreme nit-picking over semantics, my arguments are still valid.

I was trying to keep the points focused to a few examples of what I meant when I said Fryon was over-generalizing in specific Posts. His Last counter-arguments tend to smear between issues, which would be a bit of work to go back and re-direct.

The issues tended to be explainable from the same sources. The issues were often the same issue.

* Ya, it's 1 or 2 combat speed difference between baseships and battleships with the same equipment. However, it's still not enough to keep baseships from having certain efficiencies, such as better mounts and the ability to pile about twice as much equipment on per set of other components, etc. My point was simply that they are not "extremely inefficient" - rather, they have some strengths and some weaknesses.

You seem to have missed a few sentences of my post where I discussed that phrase...

I never said they had no efficiencies (I in fact mentioned several of them), and that does not even follow from the "extremely inefficient" phrase. Their inefficencies just outweigh the effeciencies in most situations, leading to such a conclusion.

* Fryon wrote: "in fact, you were the one advocating using torpedoes against someone using APBs and max range!" Not even! I was just explaining what advantages there were in that style of fighting, while repeatedly saying that I thought they were still a weaker weapon than APB XII so I'd be surprised if it made the difference.

Your post on it seems to be advocating such a thing. Perhaps that is not what you meant to say in that post... let me nit-pick over a single term for a few days here...

What I was arguing about, were Fryon's exaggerations on other details.

It is rather rude to talk about someone in the third person when they are "present", you know.

* He's continuing to miss or dodge the point that while reloading and unable to fire, it's better to be as far away as possible, instead of close.

Not at all. I never once said that it was bad to get farther away while reloading, nor anything approaching such a statement. I have just been saying that unless you have a speed advantage, you can not get away from being shot at with same or shorter ranged weapons. All you can hope to do at best is keep the same distance. Which we seem to be in agreeance on... what are we arguing over here?

He's either failing to understand what I've explained several times,

I have understood everything you have said. Please don't post veiled insults again (or things that can come across as such). Thanks.

or hoping no one will notice that he's just repeating an unrelated argument which I agree with, that unmodded APB XII does do a lot more total damage than Quantum Torps.

Your argument seems to be different than what you have been posting then... perhaps you should try to be a little clearer?

* As for statements about the frequency of battles so huge that all ships are smashed in one turn, etc., that largely depends upon circumstances. In my experience, I've seen many battles where Max Range/Don't Get Hurt has allowed a smaller fleet to defeat a much larger one.

Certainly that was not the only difference in those cases. In my experience, the only time I have seen that happen is when that smaller fleet has a significant advantage in to hit chances (such as drastically better racial bonuses, a tech advantage, or those ridiculous talismans). Or if they have a tech advantage in the weapons department and can deal a higher damage ratio...

I've also watched replays with hundreds of ships in them, where many ships were not destroyed on the first turn they came under fire. Many of course were destroyed in one turn, so it's true that often you don't get a chance to run away, but sometimes you do, and it only takes sometimes to give an advantage, even if a slight one, which is what I had meant to argue.

But unless you can move faster than the enemy, you can not run away! They will always be able to follow you, at worst just maintaining the same difference. (and don't take yet another sentence quoted out of context)

[ November 17, 2003, 20:28: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Maerlyn]

3:3;
your turn PVK! go! go! go!...

P.S.: thanx for the flowers once more deccan

[ November 17, 2003, 20:43: Message edited by: Maerlyn ]