The next patch

[PvK]

Ok here's a suggestion:

Make Clams require Water-2, Astral-1, 10 Water and 5 Astral to forge.

This would slow the expansion, and require the forgers to have Astral magic as well, which is appropriate (since they create astral gems), and also harder to get the required forgers.

PvK

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by PvK:
Ok here's a suggestion:

Make Clams require Water-2, Astral-1, 10 Water and 5 Astral to forge.

This would slow the expansion, and require the forgers to have Astral magic as well, which is appropriate (since they create astral gems), and also harder to get the required forgers.

PvK

That would work too.

[Zapmeister]

I prefer my suggestion (nature-1 water-1) because it requires nature gems (not produced by the clams) and R'lyeh has water/astral mages straight out of the box.

[mlepinski]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I prefer my suggestion (nature-1 water-1) because it requires nature gems (not produced by the clams) and R'lyeh has water/astral mages straight out of the box.

I agree that Nature-1/Water-1 mages are much harder to come by than Water-2/Astral-1 mages. (In addition to Ry'lyeh, Atlantis also has Water-2/Astral-1 mages right out of the box).

- Matt Lepinski :->

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by mlepinski:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I prefer my suggestion (nature-1 water-1) because it requires nature gems (not produced by the clams) and R'lyeh has water/astral mages straight out of the box.

I agree that Nature-1/Water-1 mages are much harder to come by than Water-2/Astral-1 mages. (In addition to Ry'lyeh, Atlantis also has Water-2/Astral-1 mages right out of the box).

- Matt Lepinski :->

---

Water/Nature perhaps makes more sense from thematic point of view. But if clams would be made along this elements than I think 10 water 5 nature would be much better, especially if clams will be left at con4.

As for hard to come by at mages capable of making them - I disagree. Any amazon priestess could make them since they have nature 1 water 1 magic pathes. They are extremely cheap at 100 gp, in addition to being sacred troops that halve their maintaence. Any present lvl 2 water mages would cost much more than that, so it would be a step backward in this regard of mainanence cost.

Amazon provinces are quite common forest type province. Besides nature 5 water 5 is too low anyway, IMHO clams should cost at least 15 gems total to slow its return of investment.

10 nature gems and 5 water would work better than 10 water 5 nature btw - this wat at least if the player is going to use cheap mages with patch enchansers to mass-produce clams he would have to pay 10 nature for wristle mace to raise nature level from 1 to 2, intead of paying just 5 for water braclet. (as in case with water 10 nature 5)

Also as it was mentioned nature gems are more valuble in general than water, tempting the player to spend it elsewhere.

[ April 05, 2004, 02:57: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Zapmeister]

Water/Nature perhaps makes more sense from thematic point of view. But if clams would be made along this elements than I think 10 water 5 nature would be much better, especially if clams will be left at con4.

Clams and fetishes are both Con2, and there's little to be gained by raising either to Con4, IMHO, even if we agree that clams are out of balance.

Any amazon priestess could make them since they have nature 1 water 1 magic pathes... They are extremely cheap at 100 gp, in addition to being sacred troops that halve their maintaence...Amazon provinces are quite common forest type province. Besides nature 5 water 5 is too low anyway, IMHO clams should cost at least 15 gems total to slow its return of investment.

Maintenance on the clam forgers is not really an issue, amazons are not common (at least not as common as national troops) and our objective is to slow the rate of clam production which can be done without increasing their total cost, IMHO.

Changing clams from water-2 to nature-1,water-1 is a small enough change to have some chance of being accepted by the devs, and the folks that think there's no problem to be fixed.

[Stormbinder]

[quote]Originally posted by Zapmeister:

Any amazon priestess could make them since they have nature 1 water 1 magic pathes... They are extremely cheap at 100 gp, in addition to being sacred troops that halve their maintaence...Amazon provinces are quite common forest type province. Besides nature 5 water 5 is too low anyway, IMHO clams should cost at least 15 gems total to slow its return of investment.

Maintenance on the clam forgers is not really an issue

Granted, it's not the most important factor but it still should be taken into calculation to get the whole picture. Mages are expansive. If you use say, your 270 gp none sacred mage as lvl 2 water one, than maintance would cost you 18gp per turn for each clam-maker. These things tend to add up. While 100gp priestess would cost you 3.3gp per turn. That's quite a differnce, if you are thinking about many clam-makers working together.

, amazons are not common (at least not as common as national troops)

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria. However as far as idep province types concern amazons are pretty common in the forests. I usually end up with anywhere from 1 to 2, sometimes 3 amazon provinces in my games after initial expansion stage.

and our objective is to slow the rate of clam production which can be done without increasing their total cost, IMHO.

I don't think that nature 5 water 5 would be an adequite solution. The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player, would require some changes to the code, and therefore is more likely to rejected by developers than simple small increase in gem cost.

[ April 05, 2004, 04:33: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Zapmeister]

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria.

Yes you can. We're trying to determine the availability of clam forgers. Atlantis and R'lyeh have national units that can forge water-2 clams. No-one has national troops that can forge water-1, nature-1 clams without a lucky random pick. That's the point.

The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player,

But I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that making them water-1,nature-1 is enough because of the reduced availability of forgers and the usefulness of nature gems for other purposes.

I'm also saying that anything more than that is overkill, and will never be accepted by the folks that don't even agree that clams are out of balance in the first place.

[Stormbinder]

Anything is not as common as your national troops since you can build them in any castle, so obviously you can't judje indep. province frequency by such criteria.

Yes you can. We're trying to determine the availability of clam forgers. Atlantis and R'lyeh have national units that can forge water-2 clams.

First you are forgeting Jotunheim. Second - all I was saying is that is that amazons are quite common forest province, with mages that can be 5 times cheaper than your national water 2 mages, and capable of making clams that fits your suggestion for their gemcost (5W/5N). That's all.

The solution that could fix overpowered clams problem without raising its cost - like seting max limit on number of clams per player,

But I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that making them water-1,nature-1 is enough

I know that. And like I said I disagee with that, for the reasons explained below.

[ April 05, 2004, 05:07: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[rabelais]

Speaking of the next patch... can someone tell me whether it has lockable research sliders?

The current system makes it impossible to obtain certain distributions. Since reductions in one get added to the smallest, and additions get pulled from the largest.

Drives me CRAZY!


Rabe the Unbalanced