What did I missed from Dom I.? -> DIPLOMACY! - Page 10

HJ · #91 October 16th, 2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by licker:
As to the SP vs. MP arguement...

Whether or not the majority of players will ever play MP or not is pretty much irrelivant, the majority of actual playing time will be SP, and that's true for probably everyone, whatever they answered in the poll. That said some improvements are beneficial to both sides, but there can also be a misleading amount of verbiage on forums such as this from the MP crowd (who are more likely to post on forums in the first place) that creates the impression to the Devs that MP is more important than SP.

We all know that the Illwinter team is more interested in MP, they've said as much, however, I consider it a disservice to the game as a whole for that to be the only form of game play that gets attention. Now I don't actually think that Illwinter is giving the SP crowd short shrift, but I do think that improvements to SP typically wind up as improvements to MP while the contrary is not nearly as true.

Well, I won't miss an opportunity to agree with licker.

You said pretty much all there is to be said about it.

HJ · #92 October 16th, 2003, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endoperez:
About SP diplomacy, it might be good addition but it might be too much.
The AI would have to check how strong your dominion is, what scales you have, might your dominion with quite a few negative scales be pushed towards its lands by stealhy preachers, check your every battle or keep book of its provinces to be sure you don't have a theme that hurts it, and everything else that human player might come up with...
Just try to list everything AI should take into account, and you might have a glimpse about how hard coding a decent AI for DomII is. Not that I have even that, of course.

It's touching that you care about where and how does IW spend their time, but if they want to do it, what would be the problem? I think they're capable enough to do it, judging by their products, and that they're capable to decide how to spend their time as well.

Endoperez · #93 October 16th, 2003, 06:46 PM

Would YOU like to write no one knows how many pages of code to a game to add something you don't think would add much for it? If the coder of IW doesn't like the idea, I think he just doesn't bother to do it, and adds something he would like to see in the game.

st.patrik · #94 October 16th, 2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Dude we are talking about SP diplomacy. Wake up.

Since you all are not reading very carefully I'll trace the flow of this conversation for you:

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Originally posted by licker:
but I do think that improvements to SP typically wind up as improvements to MP while the contrary is not nearly as true.
I agree.
MP diplomacy? Well it is not diplomacy, what we have now, it is only player interaction.

Claim: MP diplomacy is not diplomacy - just player interaction

Quote:

Originally posted by st.patrik:
Originally posted by MStavros:
MP diplomacy? Well it is not diplomacy, what we have now, it is only player interaction.
lol - what do you think diplomacy is, if interaction between humans doesn't count?

Response: How does player interaction not qualify as diplomacy?

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
Dude we are talking about SP diplomacy. Wake up.

Demonstration of Misunderstanding

-----

I understand that what you want is SP diplo. What I was saying is that SP diplo doesn't come close to MP diplo with actual people . If you want diplo, why not just play MP? I refer you (once again) to my earlier post:

Quote:

Originally posted by st.patrik:
I also agree that Illwinter should make a robust SP game, whatever they do in MP. But the thing that gets me is that some of the fanatically SP players are wanting Illwinter to add complex diplo with the AI, when if you just play MP you get way better diplo, because it's with an intelligent, sentient person. It just seems to me that if you want to interact with other nations diplomatically, MP is perfect for you! I just don't understand why people would be staunchly against MP, and yet vocal about adding diplo - which at best poorly mimics the MP experience. It makes no sense to me.

[ October 16, 2003, 17:56: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

HJ · #95 October 16th, 2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endoperez:
Would YOU like to write no one knows how many pages of code to a game to add something you don't think would add much for it? If the coder of IW doesn't like the idea, I think he just doesn't bother to do it, and adds something he would like to see in the game.

Exactly. But it's their decision, isn't it? If they like it, and deem it worthy of their time, they'll do it regardless of how long it takes. Likewise, they won't do it if they don't like it even if it takes a few minutes. So, where's the foundation of the argument that it takes too long to implement it, from your perspective as the end-user? We can talk about whether we would like it or not and what it should look like, but that doesn't have anything to do with the duration of implementation.

HJ · #96 October 16th, 2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by st.patrik:

I understand that what you want is SP diplo. What I was saying is that SP diplo doesn't come close to MP diplo with actual people . If you want diplo, why not just play MP?

Strange question. I mean, why does anybody play SP in the first place? Personal preference, to put it broadly, and differential appeal and aVersion between the two modes of play, along with dozens of other (individual) reasons. Why would that be a thing to wonder about?

MStavros · #97 October 16th, 2003, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by st.patrik:

I understand that what you want is SP diplo. What I was saying is that SP diplo doesn't come close to MP diplo with actual people . If you want diplo, why not just play MP? I refer you (once again) to my earlier post:

You have no valid points. The majority here won't play MP. IW should give the majority the joy of SP diplomacy.
Yes I am sure that it will be hellish hard to script, but why not? Saying that play MP if you want diplomacy is foolish.
IMHO, a diplo system for SP would raise the overall quality of the game...greatly.
I am sure that lot of players will agree about this.

[ October 16, 2003, 18:28: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Particle · #98 October 16th, 2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MStavros:
a diplo system for SP would raise the overall quality of the game...greatly.
I am sure that lot of players will agree about this.

I agree.

apoger · #99 October 16th, 2003, 07:52 PM

Please stop this silly bickering about SP and MP dippy. You are acting like IW has announced they are making dippy in the first place, plus that they can only go one way.

I'd like to see some basic dippy/interaction options added to both MP and SP. A simple system should be a breeze considering the complexity of what they have already created. What we need to do is convince IW that the players really do want such functionality.

Endoperez · #**100** October 16th, 2003, 08:05 PM

I think we cannot say what IW should do, at best we can tell what would sell their product most. I don't think they are very interested in getting money from DomII. Of course they would like to get some, but it is more important for them to have a game they enjoy playing. If others enjoy it it's just a plus.

Because of this, we have to let them think themselves what is good for the game. We can offer them ideas, yes, but they have to fit them to the Ascension Wars. Of course, some things simply make the game a lot better, like the command scripts, and are added like they are.
But we can only ask and hope that they do as we want, not say they should do that, or that their game would be better if they did this. How many games publishers ordered do you know that have been good?