The MA Ulm issue.

[Folket]

Velusion, that is a strange argument. You should look on how many extra items it gives.

[Baalz]

Yeah Vel, the thing is it's not so much how many gems it saves, its the utility of it. Things that cost 5 gems cost 2 gems under the forge for most nations (usually not worth a hammer to bring it down to 1 for low end items). One way to look at it is that Ulm only saves two gems (cost of 3 down to 1) - no big deal. The other way to look at it is Ulm saves 50%, you'll be able to crank out *twice* as many items. On 10 gem items (a lot of mainline SC gear) assuming you do use hammers the price for most nations is 3, for Ulm it's 2. A saving of 1 gem isn't huge, but it does translate into 50% more equipment. The strength of Ulm's forge bonus is not that they save a couple more gems on rings of wizardry, it's in mass producing mainline equipment. Plus, the forge amplifies their forge bonus in another way - it gives their smith's a wider reach of items to forge. Chainmail of displacement, starshine skullcaps, gate cleavers, winged boots, lucky coins, robes of shadows, and crystal coins can now be mass produced with no boosters, and with a couple boosters and a few bootstrapping empowerments there's not much you can't hit.

[Xietor]

Yeah but it is so easy to take that equipment away from Ulm.

That is the added bonus of starting near Ulm. Easy capital and you likely get some free hammers.

[Velusion]

Folket said:
Velusion, that is a strange argument. You should look on how many extra items it gives.

Ok... it will give more gems to a non forge nation than a forge nation (like Ulm).

[Velusion]

Baalz said:
Yeah Vel, the thing is it's not so much how many gems it saves, its the utility of it. Things that cost 5 gems cost 2 gems under the forge for most nations (usually not worth a hammer to bring it down to 1 for low end items). One way to look at it is that Ulm only saves two gems (cost of 3 down to 1) - no big deal. The other way to look at it is Ulm saves 50%, you'll be able to crank out *twice* as many items. On 10 gem items (a lot of mainline SC gear) assuming you do use hammers the price for most nations is 3, for Ulm it's 2. A saving of 1 gem isn't huge, but it does translate into 50% more equipment. The strength of Ulm's forge bonus is not that they save a couple more gems on rings of wizardry, it's in mass producing mainline equipment. Plus, the forge amplifies their forge bonus in another way - it gives their smith's a wider reach of items to forge. Chainmail of displacement, starshine skullcaps, gate cleavers, winged boots, lucky coins, robes of shadows, and crystal coins can now be mass produced with no boosters, and with a couple boosters and a few bootstrapping empowerments there's not much you can't hit.

I wasn't arguing that Forge wasn't awesome... I don't see why it's any more helpful to Ulm than any other Nation.

[Velusion]

Velusion said:

I wasn't arguing that Forge wasn't awesome... I just don't see why it's any more helpful to Ulm than any other Nation.

[DrPraetorious]

Suppose that if you have no forge bonuses, you can afford 10 items.

Well, if you have a 50% forge bonus, you can afford twice as many - twenty items.

If you have *two* 50% forge bonuses, you can afford four times as many - forty items.

Forge bonuses are better the more you have.

[Baalz]

I guess I look at it from a different angle. This is multiplicative to an existing advantage you're already leveraging. Look at it this way for the sake of simplicity, if you were forging 5 lightless lanterns per turn for 25 gems, you get the forge up and now they only cost 2 so you can forge 12 for 24 gems- the forge has gained you 7 lanterns this turn. With Ulm in the same situation you were forging 8 per turn @3 gems apiece for 24 gems total, and are now forging 24 @1 gem apiece...you've gained 16 lanterns per turn rather than 7 for the same investment in the forge. That's a pretty significant difference and the math works the same for any 5 gem item.

[Meglobob]

If you have 80 master smiths on average only 2 would have S1 and A1. So actually you would only be able to build 2 S or A items for 1 gem. Also that would be around turn 40'ish by the time you have the forge, have the mages.

I am still not very impressed.

EA Ulm forging bonus is far better. Also overall as a nation you are better off playing MA Caelum with there 1W forgers. LA Caelums 1E forge bonus is good as well.

[Baalz]

Oh, like I said, I'm not claiming they're super powerful, but I've had a lot of fun playing them and been able to do so fairly competitively.