What happens in 2025? / new tactics- new technologies

[DRG]

Originally Posted by MarkSheppard

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/...64270247350478

Rather simple; the mines are attached to each other by string, so it requires somewhat level ground, and it results in a very obvious pattern. More of a "deny ground" tactic that wastes the enemy's time by forcing them to dismount and demine.

If wasting the enemy's time is the goal then only a few of them real saves scarce resources and slows him down just as well

[Isto]

Yeah, seems Formidable at least. But it should not affect all materials the same. That is a very astonishing Development, i wont downplay that. I just say, that there can be things it wont affect the same. (that picture shows a stronger result than i anticipated)

The effectiveness of such weapon should depend much on the material it is used against. (or yes, but there should be a Kinetic representative, that can go against any current equipment and prevail. And against Missiles espcially, they are weak against Kinetic Force and i suppose Mortar Shells and Artillery Shells are not that sturdy either. I dont know is it really necessary, but many newer US Surface to Air Missiles uses a Kinetic Penetrator too. If im not entirely mistaken, they dont have Explosive Warheads at all as they supposedly think, they are not needed to achieve the goal of shooting missiles down. I also do not fully understand how they function, but thats what is stated on their information in Wikipedia: Kinetic Penetrator - For example, i do not know do they just attempt to head butt the opposing missile, or do they have an Air Burst type penetrator, that explodes as multiple pellets within proximity of the target, or both)

The effective of Kinetic weapons not that much.

Not sure about Mortar Shells, but against Missiles who use lighter chassis on default. Steel is usually not even used ?

Composite Materials are the thing as far as i have read from my limited sources. Mixture of different kind of materials, as light but strong as possible. When laser weapons get more common, they have to take them into account when engineering defences against them. Can very much be, there are several materials that Laser weapons are ineffective against because of how they function.

I am not an expert on Laser weapons. But i do know a mirror reflects them ? So against certain reflective surfaces, it might not behave the same than against pure steel. The Pure Steel (or Rolled Homogenous Armor) is also seen outdated compared to current solutions on armor.

As far as i know, pure steel is an outdated thing even against Kinetic threats. And the Helicopter gets utterly annihilated against Air Burst munitions. They are not only Blinded, but they become a Wreck and are basically Destroyed. They are so slow moving target, that it is not likely, that they can ever evade a sophisticated Autocannon system. The moment it shows itself, is very likely the moment it is wrecked. Thats why modern Helicopters uses approach, where they can shoot missiles without being seen. But that is also not necessary, as you can do that with Infantry Platforms and Ground Platforms too, there really is no difference do you launch a missile like Spike from a Helicopter or a Ground Platform. You can still hide behind terrain, and guide it mid flight without being seen yourself. Except the Helicopter price is most likely more than 10 times the price of a Ground system. But against peer opponent, you cannot bring Helicopters in the open. You will most likely end up using them the same way as Artillery. And then, why would you not just focus on the Artillery in the first place. And for example, German IRIS-T missiles can be shot against Helicopters without actually seeing them. They have a sophisticated Hunt and Seek Algorithm, that will hunt the helicopters in the blind. No matter, is it in the open or not.

So they just have to start to use different chassis that is adjusted to be resistant against Laser type weaponry. The mortars and shells might not be the problem, if you have seeker missiles that is capable of destroying the laser system.

The laser systems might not be costly to use as shot per shot basis. But the building of the laser system itself should be expensive. Each destroyed laser system is not cheap, and if you can effectively make hunt and seek offline missiles immune to them with sophisticated seek and destroy algorithms. Then the laser systems are in serious danger against them and after the laser systems have been neutralized, you can start use the normal Mortar and Artillery Shells. There might not be real need to adjust Mortar and Artillery Shells against Laser Weaponry, if you can effectively Neutralize them with missiles that the Laser Weapons cannot counter. Then the result should be, that you combine the Laser System with Missile Defence and Kinetic Defence. But the Laser Defence alone, might not be enough in itself. And the Air Burst munition is very capable a defence system also, which can make a Laser System an expensive asset to produce, which ends up performing a very limited role, that can also be performed by other, more well rounded platforms, like Autocannons too.

Against Kinetic Force, i suppose they are better against lighter targets, as in missiles, than against Mortar rounds. But as far as i have been informed, you can use Kinetic force against Mortar and Artillery Shells too.

Kinetic Force will not outdate in my opinion. I am very sceptical of the path of development many Armies have decided to take (Autonomous Robot Armies, Fully Autonomous Systems, Wing Man Planes, Laser Weaponry, Wireless Connectivity and so on). I very much value the Traditional Methods, and Traditional equipment made Sophisticated (like Autocannons, Artillery, Missiles and Human Controlled Fighter Jets).

The main idea of Wing Man Plan is represented as, that it "Draws Fire" and enables to operate within a Danger Zone. But if you have equipment like JASSM Extended Range, with 2 000 km of range. Why would you ever go within the Danger Zone, if you can pummel all of their air defence without ever put your own assets to risk. And then, where you need Wing Man planes, if you never plan to operate within any danger zones. The Missile is not that different of a Wing Man Plane, but i suppose building a missile should be cheaper, and take less of product capability. To choose between multiple Cruise Missiles and few Wing Man Planes. Can very much be, that a Cruise Missile is the better option. The future development of Cruise Missile also start to resemble more and more like a plane. So a Future Cruise Missile might not be that different from a Wing Man Plane (as in, they shoot missiles to guard the cruise missile against enemy surface to air missiles and so on, and have cluster warheads, which each of them have separate Hunt and Seek mechanism that is capable of operating without any connection to the host as in, in Offline Heavy EW environment - You basically just launch them endlessly, until all of opposing is gone. It is that simple, and do not take any skill, because it does everything automated without any connection to the launching platform).

And after the Heavy Air Defence is gone, you can move to distance 2, and start to Glide Bomb them with similar warheads, that use cluster approach and are fully operational offline. Its the same function, but without a motor.

The Counter Battery Fire, you can fully automate. The radar detects and calculates the opposing fire arc, and automatically sends a Counter Battery mission without delay. The crew do not even have to inform, or only click "Confirm Fire Mission". This is especially used against so called "Shoot and Scoot" missions, as the Counter Battery Fire Mission can start even before the rounds land if the calculation procedure is fast enough. There might even be as little than 20 or 30 seconds between the opposing Fire Mission and the response in Counter Battery Fire mission in this kind of system. And of course, a normal Tank should be entirely capable of this too. Not only specialized artillery platforms.

This is how i think. Very simple. And the emphasis is to have enough of Offline Hunt and Seek Capabilities that you wont run out of them, and can overwhelm the opposing defences.


Just something to say. to warn if planning to go Full Laser Route while neglecting other type of systems. There can very much be crucial weaknesses in them, and most likely there are. If it functions well on something very basic like a Mortar Shell or normal Missile, it might not function at all against Specialized Equipment, that is designed to counter them. And then, you become very dependant on other type of platforms to protect them as they themselves, can only function against limited type of assets. Making it a very Specialized Platform with a narrow function as a whole. As the Autocannon is kind of a Fix it All kind of platform. There is not, or should not be anything in the future, that can effectively become immune to its functions. It can function well against any and each target alone. And then, you have different Munitions to specialize against certain roles.


Just as a Joke, i can envision a Future army with High Tech capabilities for a direction not to go:

1. Make all your systems Wireless, as part of one large Wireless network.

2. Stop educating your soldiers on Mechanical use of Weaponry, only educate them on Remote Operations.

3. Never use any other assets than Remote Controlled assets, that are dependant on Wireless Connectivity.

4. Never make any Offline copies of any Information, and never make an equipment, not even a normal Body Armor, that is not linked on Wireless Network.

5. Destroy all Kinetic Weaponry, and only use Laser, Energy and EW Weaponry.

6. Especially the Ballistic Defence systems, make them only use Laser.

[Isto]

To add to the last post, i wrote this:


Happened to think also another possible weaknesses for Laser Weaponry.

Is it not so, that to function properly, Laser Weapon need to be continuously burning the target for some time ?

If this is so. Then Target Saturation would become a problem, as the Laser Weapon cannot move from Target to Target fast enough to Neuralize multiple targets fast enough.

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry (Cluster Munition), which all are Offline Guided (as in, not affected by Electronic Warfare or Jamming) with sophisticated enough Independent (offline) Seek and Destroy algorithm that enables each of those 48 incoming warheads to attack the Laser Weapon, or any platforms it attempts to protect.

(These Cluster Munitions function similar than SADARM or BONUS Round, but without the Parachute. Making the Target Acquisition, Lock and Launch in the fly)

How well do Laser Weaponry function against this type of threats ?

Air Burst Munitions for example, shoot in rapid succession, can track multiple targets, change direction in the air and have wide (burst) area that they affect.

There can be many weaknesses that Laser Weaponry have hard time to overcome.

For example, in situation given above. Properties that Air Burst munition loaded Autocannons offer (possibility to affect many targets on short timeframe, possibility to affect larger area with each shot) seem superior when compared to properties of Laser Weaponry (need to focus fire on a single target and stay focused on it for extended period of time).


Also. Against Missiles: Future Cruise Missiles are portrayed to carry 2 smaller missiles to shoot the incoming missiles down, that are supposed to destroy the missile. And all kind of Cluster or Swarm capabilities are spoken of. Again, a single missile, or even few of them have high cost ratio, and Air Burst Autocannons do not, and can possibly track and eliminate multiple threats at the same time, and on top of that, are able to provide other capabilities that the missiles do not (Indirect Fire, Direct Fire, Armor Piercing Munition and so on).

Autocannon is a multi use tool, that can offer support fire in all kind of situations. But how i see it, its main function is to offer support in close range Air Defence and while doing so, especially excel in multi threat environment (because of high Rate of Fire, Area of Effect and relatively low cost of Ammunition).

[DRG]

Lasers are a niche specialist tool under specific conditions. They are not going to replace chemical energy weapons ( AKA "bullets" )

[SaS TrooP]

About technologies BTW... What recently happened with AA weapons? After last update I believe, aircraft are extremely tough to be shot down by any means. It is quite ridiculous at this point and I wonder if there no problem with the formula calculating shoot down chances.

Like I am recently playing modern scenario, firing modern Stinger missiles against the old (!) Su-25 Grakh with less than 10% chances.
Also old MIG-29SMs are easily capable of outmaneuvering NASAMS system what is quite improbable, with ECMs downing NASAMS shoot down chances to less than 10%.

Choppers currently ignore MANPADS. Quite literally. ECMs make MANPADS (newest types) ineffective, and even if they hit they rarely score any damage.

This is a bit contradictory to Ukraine experiences, where MANPADS proove to be as deadly to choppers as in the past, and while aircraft must be careful with operations under any type of AA umbrella.
I recommend decreasing the EW of the aircraft to somehow bring it back to normal.

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by Isto

For example, there are two missiles incoming, and both of them separate to 24 (x 2 = 48) smaller Warheads before coming to range of Laser Weaponry)

Current UK laser weapon accuracy is being able to put 50KW onto a target about the diameter of the 1 EURO coin (25mm~) at 1 km distance.

If you have to separate your main munition into submunitions at say 2 km distance to present a credible target to the laser; the laser has inflicted virtual attrition -- because now wind is going to cause drift, unless you make the submunitions powered/controlled, which drives cost up and reduces # per missile.

So it's a vicious circle you're starting.

I think we're all going to converge on some sort of hybrid Air Defense/General Support vehicle where you have:

1.) 75-100 KW laser for general trash duties (popping drones, shooting down random stuff, destroying UXO in place etc)

2.) 70mm Guided Rocket Pod filled with 40~ 70mm HYDRA type rockets with either a laser guidance kit (cheap) or millimetric wave radar gudiance (expensive). Ukraine is already using laser guided 70mm Hydra-type rockets in airburst/proximity fuze mode against Iranian Shaheed drones.

https://greydynamics.com/vampires-in...rocket-system/

Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System II (APKWS) rockets. The APKWS is a 70mm laser-guided rocket that cost US$27,500 per unit.

The reason I selected a 70mm rocket was that if we put a 40mm Case Telescoped Gun with proximity airburst rounds onto the platform, people will start using it as a general purpose support vehicle, driving it up onto the battlefield to hose down houses and buildings we don't like, which isn't optimal as stuff that shows up on the battlefield for direct fire roles gets shot at.

With 70mm laser guided rockets, you don't even have to have the system be in direct line of sight for engaging ground targets; someone could have a laser designator and guide in the rocket; allowing more "covered area" than a 40mm CTA gun.

3.) Active Radar Effectors -- Modern Digital reprogrammable AESA radars which you'll need to find and target drones anyway -- can be reprogrammed easily for electronic attack -- sending short, focused hyper intense bursts of radar energy -- to fry ("zap") relatively unshielded drones during periods of extremely bad weather where the laser range is reduced.

[MarkSheppard]

https://twitter.com/conflict_live/st...52802369511580

First confirmed use of an Unmanned Ground Vehicle (UGV) armed with AGS-17 Grenade launcher, by the #Russian Army.

[DRG]

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

[MarkSheppard]

Originally Posted by DRG

More work for the AMR teams...Soon there will be AMR 'bots... next it's Rock 'em Sock 'em robots

All it takes is for something new to appear for development to start to find some way to counter it

FPVs seem to have filled this role for now; due to their ubiquity.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1774123912881754622

Both Russian UGVs were struck by FPVs from Ukraine’s 47th Mechanized Brigade.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1775245364322250804
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1772009281404969419

Photos of a Russian FPV strike on a Ukrainian UGV.

https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1733547609921352021

Video of a Ukrainian FPV strike on a Russian UGV used to transport ammunition to the front line.

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...49766520779176

The 🇺🇦Ukrainian military blew up a bridge in the village of Ivanivske, Donetsk region, with a Ratel S kamikaze ground robot

[MarkSheppard]

Ground Lasers are now somewhat deployed....

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...31854737093043

Three DE M-SHORAD military close-in defense laser systems are currently deployed in Iraq. During the tests, it is planned to evaluate their actual ability to repel attacks from small drones, as well as to intercept mines and missiles.

In September 2023, the American Army created the first experimental military air defense unit, which was equipped with exactly 50 kW laser systems - a separate platoon as part of the 4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill (4th Battalion, 60th Air Defense Artillery Regiment at Fort Sill, Oklahoma). Of the 4 vehicles in the platoon, 3 are now in Iraq.

Based on the results of the tests, a decision will be made on whether to put the complex into service or send it for revision.