ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[The_Tauren13]

Scott Hebert said:
Please make a case for your assertion that atheism is the default position of mankind. That is a positive assertion, and one that I do not accept by its statement.

By the simple fact that god has never been physically detected in any way by anyone.

[Scott Hebert]

Exactly, there is very little argument for or against the existence of a god.

I do not believe I said that, or anything remotely resembling that. Please do not agree to overgeneralizations of my statements, as they will make people believe I said one thing when I did not.

And you could easily extend it and say that they believed that they/a god had given the powers to everyone. I would say advocates of magic/miracles are just as likely to put limits on the powers. "Sorry, out of newts eye, no potions tonight","How am I supposed to teleport something made of iron?".

But is the limitation moral in nature? There's also the question of the ability to command. Miracles, whatever people believe, cannot be called upon at will by humans, being as they are a special manifestation of God's will. One can ask for a miracle, and one may receive it in response to that asking, but the power is not human's.

Magic normally involves a formulaic ability to impose one's will on the surroundings. The distinction, that in miracles it is God's will, and in magic it is the human's will, is important.

And as for those people who believe they can command the power of God, or those that believe their ability for magic comes from elsewhere, I think they are confusing the idea of miracle and magic.

[The_Tauren13]

Scott Hebert said:
The distinction, that in miracles it is God's will, and in magic it is the human's will, is important.

So lets say I make a magical potion that prevents arthritis. Then lets say god makes a miracle that cures everyone of arthritis. Why is my potion so much worse?

[Scott Hebert]

The_Tauren13 said:

By the simple fact that god has never been physically detected in any way by anyone.

That is the reason why YOU believe that God does not exist.

I can point to several thousand years of human history to show that people believed in the existence of God.

Also, people have claimed, numerous times and in numerous places (especially in the Judaic, Chritian, and Islamic faiths) that yes, God has been physically detectable.

These claims have been believed, in the main, for over 2000 years.

You claim that atheism, though, is the default position when discussing God. What you are doing, though, is simply rejecting the evidence that people have found.

Would you please restate your assertion in a way that does not simply dismiss the evidence as nonexistant?

[Scott Hebert]

The_Tauren13 said:
So lets say I make a magical potion that prevents arthritis. Then lets say god makes a miracle that cures everyone of arthritis. Why is my potion so much worse?

Where did you get the power to cure it? It may have been from God; I never have claimed that it can't come from God. OTOH, if God makes a miracle, the source of the power is obvious. In fact, God could even make His miracle by prompting you to make the 'magical potion'.

The issue at stake is that you don't know if the power you receive comes from God or not. If it does not, you cannot be guaranteed of the goodness of the fact.

I did not say that your potion 'is so much worse'. At best, I have argued it can be no better than God's cure.

As for myself, I still think this is a rather specious argument, as the idea of a miracle is something that is rare (i.e., it is God's supernatural intervention into the physical world). I think it would be much more likely for God to give us doctors who would be able to cure it with modern medicine than for a miracle to occur.

[Endoperez]

The_Tauren13 said:

So lets say I make a magical potion that prevents arthritis. Then lets say god makes a miracle that cures everyone of arthritis. Why is my potion so much worse?

Because you might have sacrificed some Blood Slaves to summon the Infernal Forces that showed you how to make it. If you were to make that potion AND would be able to prove that you received no help or guidance from any infernal or evil (and the relativity of those was already discussed in this thread) source and the ingredients were acceptable, then IMHO it wouldn't be any worse than the miracle. Well, except for the fact that your potion cannot cure everyone.

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:

I do not believe I said that, or anything remotely resembling that. Please do not agree to overgeneralizations of my statements, as they will make people believe I said one thing when I did not.

But is the limitation moral in nature? There's also the question of the ability to command. Miracles, whatever people believe, cannot be called upon at will by humans, being as they are a special manifestation of God's will. One can ask for a miracle, and one may receive it in response to that asking, but the power is not human's.

Magic normally involves a formulaic ability to impose one's will on the surroundings. The distinction, that in miracles it is God's will, and in magic it is the human's will, is important.

And as for those people who believe they can command the power of God, or those that believe their ability for magic comes from elsewhere, I think they are confusing the idea of miracle and magic.

I was not trying to over generalize you statements, I was merely pointing out that you were barking up the wrong tree about lacking evidence for the non-existence of a god.

I don't see how the distinction between whose will it is matters, only the potentially dangerous actions they may take based on their beliefs. And I have seen no evidence that those who believe in miracles are any more or less dangerous than those that believe in magic.

[quantum_mechani]

The_Tauren13 said:

So lets say I make a magical potion that prevents arthritis. Then lets say god makes a miracle that cures everyone of arthritis. Why is my potion so much worse?

lol, I can just see some pretender's priests and mages bickering. "Hah, what does your 'sacred' status get you but a pay cut?".

[Scott Hebert]

*shrugs* Again, I would point to Chesterton's Orthodoxy for people who want to read about a rather unorthodox way to the Faith (from Atheism). Lewis is also good for this.

As for why the will matters, I am simply trying to explain the Catholic position.

There are certainly many more basic questions to attend to than the difference between magic and miracles.

Working off of Endo's point, though, if you sell the potion... can you imagine the deaths that could be caused by it?

[atul]

Scott Hebert said:
"Who would willingly deny the possibility of God?"

There's this thing I've been wondering. If you really claim that theism is about believing in the possibility of a god and atheism outright denial (which, by the way, is a quite strong argumentative weapon, claiming your position extends over a wide variety of options and opposition only has a niche, no matter what the original positions were) then how does accept the possibility suddenly transform into a conviction of a particular religion's god?

I mean, sure, I can accept there's a possibility that a God portrayed by catholics exists... as well as I can accept that there's a possibility I could suddenly be teleported one meter to my left due quantum uncertainity, the probabilities of both being about equal. Even so, I believe no-one would seriously advice me to live in a constant fear of random Teleportitis...