OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[Krsqk]

Gandalf Parker said:
Im thinking maybe you werent around then from that. Vietnam wasnt a war you did because you thought war was fine. There was a draft on. You were pretty much GOING to go to war when your country called you. Either that or leave the country and lose your citizenship. There were various sidestepping actions you could work real hard to do but of course it wouldnt work if everyone did it so go to vietnam or go to some other country was pretty much the choice for us.

I understand the draft, but I'm not talking about his participation in Vietnam. I'm talking about his apparent desire to depict himself as the hero in Vietnam. The way it was done, it looks like he used the situation of the war as long as it was useful to him (the films), then got back and decided his films wouldn't be worth as much as the anti-war crowd. I realize there were plenty of people in combat who disagreed with the whole thing, but most of them weren't playing war in front of cameras in their spare time.

I guess I can see how that might be confusing. All I can say is that its not confusing at all to me. I was, and am still proud of being a VietVet. Instead of ducking out of the country I plowed right in and volunteered. On the other hand Im not proud of that war, or what was done there by many. Im not glad that the US fought it.

And technically, unless a military man specifically signed a secrecy statement about a particular mission, then it IS his military duty to speak up about atrocities when he returns.

But you never took part in any of what Kerry and VVAW were accusing the US of. Kerry said he did--and now says he's proud of his service. That doesn't seem to match up to me, unless he has an easier time dropping off to sleep at night than I do.

alarik:

The statement most quoted seems to come from an appearance by Kerry on Meet the Press on April 18, 1971:

John Kerry said:
There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.

Links would include http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html and www.wintersoldier.com (redirects to another site).

And, although I must reserve comment on it since I haven't checked it out yet, I guess I should post this link in case anyone hasn't heard of it yet: www.stolenhonor.com.

To briefly respond to the rest of what you said:
- I think the films don't necessarily show that he supported the war, but they do show that he thought it was a good enough opportunity to promote himself. My reply to GP would go here, too.

- Whether or not he was allowed to speak up about atrocities while in Vietnam, he did not need to take part in them. Note that I am not saying that would have been the easy route--it's not easy under any circumstances to stand up to a superior. But what would have happened? His CO can't just shoot him on the spot. Throw him in the brig? Court-martial him? Any retaliation against him would have made it more likely for the truth to come out. The fact that he didn't is admittedly less of a reflection on him than on the moral fiber of the average American of the time (and of this time, truth be told). As for reporting atrocities causing problems among one's unit, what about continually being subjected to seeing them committed, or even being ordered to? It seems that would be worse for morale than getting bad COs or non-coms removed.

And just as a completely unrelated side note, I found it interesting that a young F. Lee Bailey was involved in the trials for My Lai 4--for the defense. Always new tidbits of information out there that I never knew.

[eddieballgame]

[quote]
Starhawk said:
"No....though for some of them I'll say sorry.....I'm tired so I'm a litle testy...sorry......cept for my remarks toward Ed those stand.

Meaning? --- I will always take great offense to anyone who speaks ill of this imperfect yet GREAT & GIVING country of mine. I am moved by your passion.

[Fyron]

Katchoo said:
Frankly I can't be bothered to hang around here any longer. This place is going downhill while waiting for the next Release.

I'll see you all after SE:V comes out.

Read ya later.

Not that you will read this, but... that is just a tad alarmist, don't you think?

[Will]

For all, but specifically Starhawk:

If you haven't already, pick up a copy of "The Ugly American" by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick at your local library. It focuses on the arrogance that was prevalent in the 1950's and 1960's era policies in southeast Asia, and how it helped the Soviets gain an even larger foothold in the area because of the unbelievable ignorance and arrogance of American foreign policy. In its time, it turned around American policy, and probably helped the US win the Cold War. Today, you can make very good parallels with the American foreign policy worldwide under the Bush Administration, and see how Islamic terrorist Jihad organizations are utilizing the same mistakes to take advantage of our position, and possibly bring us down through guerilla warfare (not to mention through pissing off the rest of the world).

If you have read the book, I suggest reading through it again to see the parallels. In my personal opinion, the countries of the Middle East were screwed up by the territory borders drawn up after the World Wars by Britain, France, the US, and the Allies, and are not yet ready for a democratic style of government (for the nitpickers, republican style of government, there is no true democracy on Earth at the moment AFAIK). But if we are going to install such a style of government, we do it through the work of aid workers, who facilitate the creation of businesses in the area and instill the social values of elections, fair judicial systems, and human rights, etc. The way is not through a military invasion followed by the creation of what is essentially a puppet government and an election process that will inevitably degenerate into complete failure. A democratic system will not work unless the citizens of the area want to make it work, and we're not making that happen right now.

[Gandalf Parker]

Krsqk said:
I understand the draft, but I'm not talking about his participation in Vietnam. I'm talking about his apparent desire to depict himself as the hero in Vietnam. The way it was done, it looks like he used the situation of the war as long as it was useful to him (the films), then got back and decided his films wouldn't be worth as much as the anti-war crowd. I realize there were plenty of people in combat who disagreed with the whole thing, but most of them weren't playing war in front of cameras in their spare time.

You make it sound like a weekend event. Its like saying you can either be proud of making the honor roll in school, or ashamed of some of the things you did in school, but not both. You cant say "I earned a letter in track" and also say "I beat up a kid for being for the other team" at the same time?

If he got a purple heart then he got a purple heart. Now if he had gotten a silver star SPECIFICALLY for what he felt at the time was an atrocity and tried to claim both at the same time then I could see it being hypocritical.

[Gandalf Parker]

Starhawk said:
Oh and no offense to any Canadians here

Too much to respond to in all that.

This is embearrassing. Either you are an excellent troll or the best example of an american stereotype Ive met in a long time. Please... join something and visit the real world outside of the US.

[Gandalf Parker]

alarikf said:What I really should have said was this: in countries where the state religion is Islam, women have a varying degree of structural, insituational and cultural hurdles to overcome. In some cases, these can be extremely oppressive, in others, almost non-existent.

Right. Its very different in Indonesia, Algeria, Albania, Bandladesh, Malaysia, Morocco, Somalia, Turkey, Nigeria. The countries with the largest muslim populations arent even in the arabian desert.

What we see are really a few women who feel they should not have to follow the local customs. It makes big news because their action agrees with our customs and rights. Im not saying they shouldnt have that right but its not some huge revolution.

They have the same problem looking at our countries. They find it odd that they CANNOT wear their veils whereever they want, Or that american muslims would hear "go back where you came from". To them, the big news would be the american woman who's husband can actually MAKE her get a job, Or can actually kick her out with no support unless she goes to a court and demands money.

Oh, and, hey, you think NY or Boston drivers are agressive? Man, you haven't seen aggressive until you've seen how women in Tehran drive! Seriously.

Do they have "asma Allah" bumper stickers? The will of Allah which actually has legal precedent in their courts.

[AMF]

Gandalf Parker said:
Do they have "asma Allah" bumper stickers? The will of Allah which actually has legal precedent in their courts.

Heh. Didn't see any bumper stickers. Was too busy jumping out of the way usually.

What does 'asma Allah' mean? I know the standard phrases, and I used to know a bit more Farsi and arabic, but now it's just limited to 'humdillah', 'inshalla' and stuff like that...

[Starhawk]

[quote]
eddieballgame said:

Starhawk said:
"No....though for some of them I'll say sorry.....I'm tired so I'm a litle testy...sorry......cept for my remarks toward Ed those stand.

Meaning? --- I will always take great offense to anyone who speaks ill of this imperfect yet GREAT & GIVING country of mine. I am moved by your passion.

Will again read the whole thing before you post because you sound like you didn't read jack after that line considering the reason I said I dislike Ed is because he is one of those violent we need a revolution nuts not even someone who wants to change things FOR THE BETTER please do learn to pay close attention to every post following that one again......especially because that was waaaaaay back and apparently that's your stop point as far as reading went.

Oh and I'm sorry I'm a little testy because I'm tired means I was tired so I was stressed so I was sorry there is no "reading between the lines" possible anywhere in there.


"For all, but specifically Starhawk:

If you haven't already, pick up a copy of "The Ugly American" by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick at your local library. It focuses on the arrogance that was prevalent in the 1950's and 1960's era policies in southeast Asia, and how it helped the Soviets gain an even larger foothold in the area because of the unbelievable ignorance and arrogance of American foreign policy. In its time, it turned around American policy, and probably helped the US win the Cold War. Today, you can make very good parallels with the American foreign policy worldwide under the Bush Administration, and see how Islamic terrorist Jihad organizations are utilizing the same mistakes to take advantage of our position, and possibly bring us down through guerilla warfare (not to mention through pissing off the rest of the world).

If you have read the book, I suggest reading through it again to see the parallels. In my personal opinion, the countries of the Middle East were screwed up by the territory borders drawn up after the World Wars by Britain, France, the US, and the Allies, and are not yet ready for a democratic style of government (for the nitpickers, republican style of government, there is no true democracy on Earth at the moment AFAIK). But if we are going to install such a style of government, we do it through the work of aid workers, who facilitate the creation of businesses in the area and instill the social values of elections, fair judicial systems, and human rights, etc. The way is not through a military invasion followed by the creation of what is essentially a puppet government and an election process that will inevitably degenerate into complete failure. A democratic system will not work unless the citizens of the area want to make it work, and we're not making that happen right now. "



Again you obviously havn't read jack squat else of what I posted so I won't even bother to reply to that beyond this line.

[Gandalf Parker]

alarikf said:

Heh. Didn't see any bumper stickers. Was too busy jumping out of the way usually.

What does 'asma Allah' mean?

It means "Will of Allah". If they hit you then it was meant to happen. The deeply faithful would put it and would drive as if they fully believed it. Trucks in Turkey had it on their bumpers alot and it basically meant that anyone with that on their bumper had right of way. That was a couple of decades ago but I havent heard that it changed any.