Exploit question

[Dimaz]

Well, in the game I played last year it was just as you say, in the end it was me with over 200 provs and Executor who had about half as many, but he was EA Ctis and clammed like crazy while I (LA Ctis) was conquering the world. In the end I had about 400 converted astral/turn but he had Nexus and FotA up, so we had some nice battles and finally he won with GoH-Armageddon combo because he had more gems than me (999 dispels/recasts were not uncommon there). So I know what are you talking about but still I'm against such changes. About making our own mod - hehe, this mod already exists and is called CBM 1.5 Actually I prefer vanilla game (heresy!), but 1.5 was also fine. I see no reason to argue with the community here and actually I was going to start some sort of "nostalgia" no-mods game after I'm finished with in some of my current games but it seems I'm going to stay for a while in them.

[vfb]

ComfortZone was the most recent vanilla game I joined, it started last Nov. Cleveland posted the OP, and it had 14 signups already the next day.

I agree that some of the early comments regarding gem gems in the "Clam Shortage" thread were out of line, especially the "go play with yourself" one. But if Xanatos had started a game that sounded more fun, with better parameters, and just stated right off some reasons that it was going to be include gem gens, he probably would have had more people join.

Kuritza, I didn't see any game thread in the MP forum started by you. "Clam Shortage" has got no graphs, it's all-age, and it's got no victory condition other than "last man standing/concession", on a 20+ player game. And it started off non-CBM and then switched to CBM, for additional unappealing wishy-washyness.

I think it's kind of ironical that you're complaining here about people not playing vanilla, but then you bailed on "Clam Shortage" because it included the vanilla nations LA Ermor and LA R'lyeh.

[Kuritza]

Who is kidding whom again?
Ah wait. You probably didnt realize you can remember (write in a text file if thats easier for you) guys with clams for returning and global buffs, pool in the beginning of every turn and just give these guys pearls again.
Thats what I do, and it works like a charm, and it doesnt take much time.

[Micah]

Again, see Artifacts. I had at least one gem gen on every single commander that wasn't fighting, two on most, and shuffling the damn things around when I needed to pull commanders for combat duty was really horrible. Oh, and armageddons were going off, so scouts and the like had to be armored, or beefier clam holders were required. Until you've been through a post-armageddon 300+ gen income/turn stalemate you're really not in a good position to argue the effect of gens on the high-level games that are played.

[vfb]

I have a feeling this discussion could be heading down Monkey PD Boulevard soon.

[Kuritza]

)))))))))))))

[Quitti]

This whole "Everyone wants everyone to play CBM so it means newbies use CBM" is not true. Take this game for example - It is a game set by newbies for mostly newbies, in which I suggested using CBM, but they preferred the vanilla game to that to actually learn the game as it was made, not how the community wants it to look. I'd still suggest starting playing with CBM if a new such game was hosted, but it's purely up to the host/players to decide the game settings, not the community. Of course, if community doesn't want to play a horribly unbalanced vanilla game (and admit it, some nations are simply very very much stronger than others still even in CBM), they won't. Simple as that. But I've yet to see anyone prove this point despite throwing such accusations around. I was in ComfortZone myself, but I was eliminated by three or four player alliance in the midgame, and it was definitely fun.

Kuritza, I know you've sworn quitting the game, but I'd really suggest you to start a non-CBM game if you want to play in one, or play with CBM 1.5 (with gemgens) or modify CBM 1.6 to enable gem gens again if you think that is the only point. You keep talking about how this change if wrong, when judged by most experienced players it is not. And like I've stated before, I don't agree with all the changes in the CBM, but it definitely makes the game much more fun to play with much more options and better overall balance.

[Mardagg]

I agree with Quitti.
I was a newb regarding DOM 3 MP games and joined 2 games about 2 months ago: One is vanilla,the other CBM 1.6.
The vanilla game filled very fast and consists of some newbies and some more experienced players also.
The consensus in the vanilla game(Casual EA) was not using CBM to get the original feeling of the game,the developers wanted it to be.
I must say,now that both games are around Turn 40,that personally,i find CBM much superior to vanilla.
I dont agree on all changes it makes,but on most.
I especially like how it increases the options on pretender design,which clearly is a big downside in vanilla,since most Pretender chassis are simply too weak and/or expensive to take.
And you have to consider,while CBM now removes Clams,most of the so called "clam nations" have been slightly improved in other areas or simply benefit more than others from the overall balance changes e.g. better early summoning spells via cheap dragon master.

Ive played a lot of DOm2 MP End games and i know what it means to battle it out with hundreds of clam holders.
Turns taking 12 hours+ mainly because its so tough to micro all the artifacts/gem gens and deciding how to spend those 300+ gems the most effective way.Thats not fun,thats a pain.

[Psycho]

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Oh, and BTW I think Bogus and co. can be used with their orders, but orders shouldn't be copied to other units.

[Mardagg]

Originally Posted by Psycho

The CMB doesn't balance nations. Especially with the removal of gem gems (which I am all for BTW) the nations are unbalanced in a completely different way than in the vanilla game - bandar, machaka and the like weakened, blood nations made stronger due to fewer gems (which can probably be offset by higher magic settings), etc. But the fact is that regarding nations, CBM is as unbalanced as the vanilla. Magic system is better with lesser summons cheaper (sometimes too cheap) to make them worthwhile. Still, I'd recommend new players to start with the vanilla version.

Its far too early to tell imo.
CBM 1.6 is for sure not the end of the road.
After lots of games being played out under it,we might see the whole impact no gem gens has on this complex environment and might get a very well balanced CBM 1.7.

For me ,Astral Magic was way too overpowered due to gem gens.
Its all about counters.
There are several ways to counter a strong blood nation for example...since it has to actually defend its territory in order to keep the economy going.Also you cant alchemize your blood slaves and most summons are limited,with often several blood nations fighting for the uniques.
Talking about clam hording nations with astral magic,what can you do against them if you dont have lots of clams and/or decent astral magic yourself?
Now with the bigger maps in Dom3 ,its often very tough to do something against that nation you know that is clam hoarding,but is turtling at the other end of the map.
And those horders can easily use their clams to alchemize to death or Nature,too,for countless tartarians.
So,what i am saying,basically you need water+Nature and probably good astral to stand a chance in any medium to bigger sized maps with gem gens.That IS definately taking away a lot of strategic options for most nations

Talking about Machaka is interesting.
They dont got any Astral and are more in Fever Fetish forging than Clam hoarding.
I seriously think Machaka does a lot better in no gem gens games now simply because other nations cant forge clams.

Btw, i would like to see the fever fetish remaining in the game,with maybe slightly cost increase , anyways.
In addition there has to be some earth booster instead of the blood stone.