OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

SlipperyJim: It's this line right here, this perfect moment of crystal clarity, in which you render your entire faith, religion, and hope of salvation, utterly and completely empty, meaningless, forever a non-relevant, non-entity--atleast for me and for everything I hold to be good.

Well, ok, that seemed to me a bit antagonistic i was jus hoping to prevent the starting to a flame, forgive me ^_^

Not of course that I like SlipperyJim's words too, btw. He calls himself a fundamentalist, which means his style of life is just different from the "average guy" he depicted (btw, I'd also like to know how it is so different if he was willing to say us ) and whoever lives his life in a less "God-driven" way (whatever it means) than him is going to Hell.

Of course I'm not accepting it. I just think at my grandma, she died last year. She was a very good woman, religious and a "good Christian", going to the church every sunday and so.
But of course "Jesus" wasn't the purpose or the "engine" of her life.
Her 2 sons were: my mother and my uncle. 2 sons that she had to raise alone after the early death of her husband, in a whole life of hard work and renunciations. She would have gave up her faith, like everything else for them - for fundamentalist believers like Slippery, this is enough for them to call her a "bad Christian without God in her heart", and see my good ol' grandma burning forever in a lake of fire.
Her and all the unbaptized or muslim innocent children dying for starvation (let's say if in the 10 millions of children who every year according to the FAO die for starvation, the 60% are muslim or unbaptized or so, it's 600 innocent children every hour sent in a lake of fire by a loving God )

But you know what? I don't care Because I'm 100% sure it isn't the case at all - otherwise I wouldn't be agnostic.
The Bible, which is said to be the "evidence" of all this, is supposed to having been written by the "smartest person of the universe", still when you read it where's the sensation of awe you should prove in reading something so smart, so timeless? A lot of it is mass-murdering, slavery, sexism, not to talk about the endless contradictions, the scientifical nonsenses, the commandments of lapidation.

So I can debate with all calm with Slippery and all the others who think me and my family and lots of "averagely-good" and innocent people will be sent, or are already, in a giant lake of fire forever (i mean, can you imagine it?) without getting offended by this and still trying to comprehend better each other.

Sorry for the harsh words. Best wishes to all. Take care.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Read first John, all of it.

It has always baffled me why so many of my fellow Christians recommend that people start with the Gospel of John. John is the most opaque and allegorical of the Gospels, far and away the hardest of the four to grasp the message of.

If someone is curious about Jesus, I recommend they start with the Gospel of Mark. It's the shortest and most straightforward telling of Jesus' ministry (and believed to be the earliest written down). What I'd recommend after Mark would depend on what questions it brought up for you.

[Bwaha]

Hi, sorry to be so short in my posts. What I asked people to look at was the chapter named First John. My internet connection is rather bad, and thats why my posts are so short. Today I'm off work so I can chat for a while. Tifone I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I apologize if I did. My reference to babies was a due to the fact that when you are "born again" you are changed into a new person. Here is my reasoning :

First Peter [1] Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
[2] As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.

And next:
Hebrews 5 12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that use th milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

So I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I was expressing a doctrine. Yah, I know its rather obscure but I feel its important to be correct in this subject. One reason that "we" have to share our belief is:
Revelation 12 [9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
[11] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So one of key components of my belief is I have to share the "truth" with anyone who asks. I don't want to force my beliefs on anyone, after all God have given us the right to choose to believe or not. So who am I to tell someone they have to believe. The choice is for each person to decide.

[JaghataiKhan]

Since every side is deep entrenched in their beliefs, I'll drop 2 cents and disappear and never visit this thread again.

Any God that takes people that heard his message and accept it into heaven, despite other,non-grace-saved people choosing to be benefical, charitable and all other "good" side of the good-evil morality scale(which is a pretty much relative scale anyway), despite some of the the grace accepting people having horrific deeds, despite many people not having the chance to even see this message, into heaven without even punishing them for their misdeeds to even the scales, and throws the rest into hell forever, is an extremely disgusting, sick monstrosity with whom no covenant can be made, no word can be taken seriously, no mercy can be expected, and its covenant must be abjured from the rest of humanity as diseased of the mind, its book be eradicated and never be copied again, its laws erased once and for all, and its followers prevented to breed until their minds are free from the disease.

Save your excuses,I won't hear them! "But you can't understand the workings of the grace!" I'm glad I can't, as I have yet to ponder what convoluted Lovecraftian logic allows an all loving,omni-everything God to even start existing or start existance, yet alone throwing innocent non-Christians(which mostly happen to be non-white as well, Manifest Destiny anyone?) forever into Hell for...eternal torment, which is something even Hitler,Stalin,Erzsebet Bathory or George W. Bush doesn't deserve.

P.S if you think I made a dish of copypasta, being a non-native English speaker to formulate these words, **** you, whomever even considers it.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Bwaha

Tifone I didn't mean to offend you or anyone else. I apologize if I did.

Wait, wait! You have nothing to apologize... I understood what you wrote. Mine was a totally unrelated thought. Don't worry, you didn't offend anyone at all

Thanks for having expressed your reasons also. Nothing that I didn't know already (I know the Scriptures ^_^ ) but it's always good to listen someone explaining his life styles and choices

[HoneyBadger]

JaghataiKhan: I appreciate that you're earnest in your beliefs, and I realize that English isn't your first language, but every time I try to decypher what you wrote up there, my eyes cross of their own volition.

That's not helping us to understand you, or you to get your message across.

Could you maybe calm down a bit and give that back to us more slowly, with little words?

[Bwaha]

Hi, here's a thought. Suppose I was a doctor looking for a cure for aids, and I found one. Then the company that I was working for decided that they didn't want it revealed because of some stupid reason. Then they threaten me with jail or worse if I divulge this information. Would I risk my life to save people that I don't know? Of course I would freely share this knowledge despite the ramifications. The God of Israel has said he will destroy this world and all that are on it. Then He said I will give anyone a way to get off this rock before it goes. Further more He gave us the choice to escape this fate.

Suns go nova all the time. This means that whole ecosystems, and dare i say it, civilizations go poof... If some alien came and said your planet was going to be destroyed and he will rescue all who would get on his ship. But you have to do something that seems silly first. Would you do it?

I've got a proposition for you, I would like to see if there's a measurable change in a person when they are in a normal state versus being filled with the Holy Spirit. If there was, would you take it as proof of the existence of God? Or would you say its just a change in the energy state of said person. When God uses me to heal people I feel a charge of energy that I can't hold back. Totally being filled to overflowing. The energy is not from me. I'm simply a conduit. I've seen some pretty amazing things, so for me there is absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[thejeff]

I've read way to much science fiction to get on a ship with any old alien who comes along claiming the Earth's going to be destroyed. I want to see the evidence.

You're offering a miraculous solution to a problem that I don't believe exists.

As for your "measurable change", as far as I know no such thing has ever been shown. If you've got evidence, bring it on. I'd like to compare it with studies of similar states from other religions. Reports of such states are not limited to Christianity and appear to go back the earliest shamanistic traditions. Many of the more mystical eastern traditions have exercises dedicated to producing similar things at will. All of which suggests to me that it's some inherent potential in people rather than produced by a specific God.

[Bwaha]

I volunteer to be subject to testing, a mri maybe? Does anyone have access to one?

[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by thejeff

Reports of such states are not limited to Christianity and appear to go back the earliest shamanistic traditions. Many of the more mystical eastern traditions have exercises dedicated to producing similar things at will. All of which suggests to me that it's some inherent potential in people rather than produced by a specific God.

Furthermore, even if they are linked and granted in some way by some specific god - they are apparently not linked to the specific faith, thus proving that he is not as biased as some would like you to think.

Remember that religion is a competitive industry, and most people only tithe or donate to one church at a time. Worship is money, my friend.