No more MP for Hinnom? - Page 11

Edratman · #**101** October 3rd, 2008, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre

Really? In the couple of SP games I played they got a few provinces and then got stuck on that amount for 20+ turns. Definitely lower on the graphs than other races, especially fomoria.

That might have just been their scales or something though I guess.

Hinnom has sucked every time they were AI in my SP games. I suppose that's why I fail to comprehend the "Hinnom is over-powered" mantra.

I agree with this. I played about 20 EA games trying to balance out my mods for better computer opponents and Hinnom never did that well.

One thing I did notice during the testing is that as an AI opponent they seem to have a lower castle build ratio than other nations.

I've tested two different mods for computer opponents and possessing some small observational ability I have deduced that JK is using a very low probability dice roll for AI castle builds that checks every AI owned province every turn. It appears that JK has assigned slightly different values for each AI opponent. The water nations appear to have the highest ratio. If you play mods as AI opponents, then they also seem to get a higher probability for castle builds. I suspect they get a default dice roll value that is greater than that of some standard nations.

No real science here, just observations by a very old engineer.

Sombre · #**102** October 3rd, 2008, 08:04 PM

Sounds more like the UW nations are finding the free castle sites.

Edratman · #**103** October 4th, 2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sombre

Sounds more like the UW nations are finding the free castle sites.

I cannot refute that. Nor did it occur to me. I personally do not like and thus haven't played the water nations since my initial round of experimentation, but I have noticed a high ratio of free castles in the water when invading and site searching.

I do know that castle cost is not a factor in AI castle building. I modded a version of "All Nations" and gave half the nations Wizards Towers for all terrains and there was not any difference in the number of castles built between the two groups over two or three long games.

Edratman · #**104** October 4th, 2008, 06:37 AM

OOPS. I'm sorry that I pushed this a little off topic.

What I mean is that Hinnom's strength is its national troops, and as an AI opponent if they do not build additional castles the national troop build is too restricted. Too much gold is spent on indies, even using BI opponents, and the computer choices for national troop builds are not always optimal. That is why as an AI opponent they do not always perform as well as when played by a person. Not enough prime national troops and commanders.

It is also the reason I limited national troop selections and removed capitol only restrictions in the Improved Computer Opponent mods. These mods are optimal if the AI nation gets some favorable "build castle" dice rolls or finds free castle sites. Otherwise they are merely slightly enhanced versions of themselves.

I wonder if JK could correlate AI castle build probabilities to degree of difficulty? That would help AI nations, if it doesn't bankrupt them. (OOPS, another OT nudge.)

Lingchih · #**105** October 4th, 2008, 09:26 PM

Why has this discussion pushed into Hinnom SP? The topic was Hinnom MP, where they are unstoppable with a good player at the helm.

Bwaha · #**106** October 4th, 2008, 10:45 PM

Shush, I'm playing Hinnom MP. Don't give them any ideas....

Gandalf Parker · #**107** October 4th, 2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lingchih

Why has this discussion pushed into Hinnom SP? The topic was Hinnom MP, where they are unstoppable with a good player at the helm.

It happened when the discussion went to possible fixes.
A reminder that MP is only a part of the game so a fix needs to involve more fixing the MP part if it breaks others.

archaeolept · #**108** October 5th, 2008, 03:26 AM

how could more balancing hinnom for MP possibly break SP? I don't even understand that.

HoneyBadger · #**109** October 5th, 2008, 03:36 AM

What Gandalf means, I think, is that there's an MP element to the game, and a (badly neglected) SP element, and they don't work the same way at all. I personally think we need atleast 1 version of each Nation for SP, and atleast 1 version of each Nation for MP. Probably more than one.

JimMorrison · #**110** October 5th, 2008, 04:08 AM

Also, if on harder difficulties many people are already seeing Hinnom fumbling around in SP, then "tuning" them with even subtle nerfs intended for MP, may just compound that problem. Of course, I'm having trouble figuring out what might be different about them, that the AI underperforms even against itself. (I'd like to note, many of my recent test games, Hinnom or Ashdod take off like crazy.) I'd be willing to bet it has to do with the AI's propensity for cheap indie troops though, as Hinnom's strength is based off of their incredible national troops (and if they lag in castles, that will have the obvious effect on that).