Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved.

OK, here's my report -

Playing Order+3/Misfortune+3 in a common events PBEM right now.

In the first 26 turns, Version 2.02, I had 2 bad events at the capital (brigands causing unrest - one was automatically cured by patrols, the other did cost me ~220 gold as I dropped the taxes to 0 to get rid of the problem), 1 bad event in a 2k province (again brigands), 1 mixed event (witch giving gems and cursing units - as I had no unit there it was actually good for me) and 1 good event (some extra gems). Turn 27, just before we patched, I had 1 more good event in a province in enemy dominion - castle popping out in an underwater province, the bug that was fixed in the new patch - doubly lucky!

After the patch, I had one more good event (+50 gold, -20 unrest). So in 29 turns, the net result is:

+1 castle worth 450 gold
+9 gems
-170 gold

[SurvivalistMerc]

Nagot Gick Fel,

Please keep us posted. I would love to discover what happens to you in the remainder of the game.

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by johan osterman:
Bowing to popular demands runs against the long and proud tradition of swedish paternalism.

Damn!

Are you open to bribery?



Keir

[Keir Maxwell]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved.

OK, here's my report -

Playing Order+3/Misfortune+3 in a common events PBEM right now.

---

We might need more than two turns under the new patch to get a good feel for it.

It also would be good to keep a seperate log of events for the two periods , pre patch, post patch. Combining the two undermines the basis for comparision.

Normally I would sit down and play through the first 20 or so turns of half a dozen games but I must focus on my mod.

If Order/Misfortune does prove to still be a reasonable option then we are going to hear no end of complaints about those floods.

cheers

Keir

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Just ot repeat some things I said earlier as they seem out of keeping with much of the opinion being expressed and I'd like to know why.

1.Turmoil3/luck3 is not suicidial

As I understand it nothing has changed about this option with the patch and in my experiance it works for some races - just not as well as order/misfortune used to. I have played many test games with this combo using races like Tuatha, BK and S&A and have only once seen my capital hit big time. Thats playing events commen.

It's not suicidal but it may force you into a slow start, unless you get lucky early.

One thing to note with S&A though, you get quite a few free gems from luck, which a magically powerful nation could use. But turmoil cuts into your CM recruiting income.

2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved. I find it hard to imagine taking this set of scales in MP yet most seem to assume its still the norm and some have expressed the idea you would be silly not to which I really doubt to be the case. It may be this is a entirely viable option but it needs to be tested.

I would like to hear alot more on this one as I'm working on the War of the Ring mod and have no time for testing.

The reason order/misfortune was "bad" in Dom I was that you didn't need order to tax at 200% wherever you felt like it - it was just slightly convenient to have order. Now that tax/patrol abuses are a thing of the past, order's gold bonus looms larger.

You get the standard event frequency, but most events are bad. But you get +21% income from those provinces that haven't been overrun by barbarians or vinemen, flooded, stricken with the plague etc. I don't know whether this is a worthwhile tradeoff for 0 points - but some themes have to take order, and now one theme has to take misfortune, so in at least those cases it might work out.

3. Order3/luck0 would seem the new norm.

If point 2 above is true then this is what alot of people are going to go for. It costs 120 design points more then turmoil/luck and will be stronger even though its not as strong as it was and wasn't chosen often previously.

While Turmoil/luck has not improved order has got worse which makes turmoil/luck stronger.

IMO it would be more accurate to say that misfortune has gotten worse, not order. Order3/luck0 isn't significantly worse than it was before; it has slightly more events but they are still (theoretically) balanced. But order no longer covers up the bad effect of misfortune as much.

I don't think that order 3 luck 0 will necessarily become a standard. The benefits of order are potent but 120 nation points is a lot, especially if your nation needs lots of supplies, or high dominion strength, or fast research, or you are playing a theme that costs points, or your nation relies on sacred troops and needs a good blessing, or... there are always more good ways to spend nation points than there are nation points to spend on them.

Temperature is a no-brainer for certain nations. Any other scale you have to think about, unless your theme requires a +3 setting.

I like this.

I'm a little suprised that alot of people seem to have written off the value of the changes to order/luck scales and are working on their own yet I have still seen no sign of a thorough test of the new scales. If the patch has been ineffective I'd like to see this demonstrated not just claimed. Feedback from games played under the new system is the key.

(snip)

With all the changes already in the patch (two new themes, balance and bug fixes) and more in the works (I heard there is a 3rd underwater nation on the drawing board, from the screenshot it looks like a nation of tritons! I hope they have mages whose standard magical abilities allow for Amulet of the Fish...), I'm reluctant to jump into modding immediately (either making my own or playing someone else's). I want to give Illwinter's Version some more time first.

I don't have any particularly conclusive tests atm, but it feels to me that there was a slight (very slight) increase in events in Order3/Misfortune3 but Order0, Luck 0 there are less events than prepatch. I don't know if one of the hidden adjustments was to lower the overall chance of events in order to compensate some for the balancing of the scales.

If I have time I'll do some 50 turn tests with the basic land types unless someone else gets to it before I can while I struggle with making a good looking pdf.

[ January 15, 2004, 04:44: Message edited by: Zen ]

[Paul1980au]

I guess this would affect gameplay if it was changed to a great degree.

[PDF]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved.

OK, here's my report -

Playing Order+3/Misfortune+3 in a common events PBEM right now.

In the first 26 turns, Version 2.02, I had 2 bad events at the capital (brigands causing unrest - one was automatically cured by patrols, the other did cost me ~220 gold as I dropped the taxes to 0 to get rid of the problem), 1 bad event in a 2k province (again brigands), 1 mixed event (witch giving gems and cursing units - as I had no unit there it was actually good for me) and 1 good event (some extra gems). Turn 27, just before we patched, I had 1 more good event in a province in enemy dominion - castle popping out in an underwater province, the bug that was fixed in the new patch - doubly lucky!

After the patch, I had one more good event (+50 gold, -20 unrest). So in 29 turns, the net result is:

+1 castle worth 450 gold
+9 gems
-170 gold

---

I wondered how you built "Hill Fortresses" underwater, you damn Pythium cheater, now I know...
And you're damn lucky to get all this with Misf3, I didn't get so good event with Misf1, I did only get 2 Heroes (but lost one to a stray iny Xbow bolt )

PDF, aka Allgemeine Von Ulm

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by PDF:
I wondered how you built "Hill Fortresses" underwater, you damn Pythium cheater, now I know...

And notice I got that fortress in a province that's influenced by your own dominion. You deserve a warm "Thank you!".

And you're damn lucky to get all this with Misf3, I didn't get so good event with Misf1, I did only get 2 Heroes (but lost one to a stray iny Xbow bolt )

Ah, at Last you realize your situation is hopeless. So, you surrender?

[Edit: typo]

[ January 15, 2004, 15:15: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

[General Tacticus]

Originally posted by Keir Maxwell:
Just ot repeat some things I said earlier as they seem out of keeping with much of the opinion being expressed and I'd like to know why.

1.Turmoil3/luck3 is not suicidial

I agree. Have you read my Mictlan AAR ? I am playing at Turmoil 3/ Luck 1, with Mictlan, and doing well, thank you.

However, Turmoil 3/Luck 3 and Order 3/Misfortune 3 should not really be compared in terms of gold produced alone. Turmoil 3 is for nations that are less gold-dependant. Luck 3 is a playing style (and does give you a nice boost, don't forget to play common events !). The Turmoil 3/ Luck 3 works well with some nations (Mictlan, Ulm, Ermor I suppose, ...). What was really sad pre-patch was that Order 3/Luck 3 was a useless combo. And that Order 3/Misfortune 3 cost nothing but had almost no downside (specially with rare events). No wonder it was taken by everybody ! And they never noticed they were losing some very nice events, awesome heroes, and so on. This seems to be fixed now.

Not convinced ? Try it ! Take a nation that is not too gold dependant, for example Ulm. Take Turmoil 3 / Luck 3 and whatever other scale you feel good with. Play it. Expand. And look at the nice events. The bigger you grow, the more events. Free troops. Free castle. Free lab. Free gems. Free Gold. Free unrest reduction. Free magic sites. Free commanders. Free artifacts. Free permanent increase in taxes or in ressources. While you are at it, try casting crossbreeding. Watch the awesome results Remember you paid 0 design points for all thoses events Discover your nice national heroes (OK, Ulm's heroes suck, try it with someone else ).

Hey, now that the scale are fixed, I believe I'll try a Order 3/ Luck 3 game. The gold AND the events ! Of course, I'll have to make sacrifices elsewhere.