The next patch

[Zapmeister]

At the moment, 4 nations have national mages that can forge clams. If they were nature-1,water-1, no-one would have national mages that could do it, but if jade amazons (not any old amazon will do) are found, then it can be done on a much lower maintenance bill.

At that point, I'm done with this topic. I fear, because there's been so much disagreement, that there's no hope of getting any fix at all. I was plugging for a smaller fix mostly because I thought it was the only proposal that had any chance of getting past the devs.

I guess we're gonna have to learn to live with clam-hoarders

[licker]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
At the moment, 4 nations have national mages that can forge clams. If they were nature-1,water-1, no-one would have national mages that could do it, but if jade amazons (not any old amazon will do) are found, then it can be done on a much lower maintenance bill.

At that point, I'm done with this topic. I fear, because there's been so much disagreement, that there's no hope of getting any fix at all. I was plugging for a smaller fix mostly because I thought it was the only proposal that had any chance of getting past the devs.

I guess we're gonna have to learn to live with clam-hoarders

Better check your themes before you start on with the 'noone' bit... then again who plays Miasma anyway?

Still this seems like a problem that is better addressed by the players (like using house rules?) than addressed by some kind of nerf. I fall firmly in the 'who cares' camp on this one

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:
I fear, because there's been so much disagreement, that there's no hope of getting any fix at all. I was plugging for a smaller fix mostly because I thought it was the only proposal that had any chance of getting past the devs.

I guess we're gonna have to learn to live with clam-hoarders

Well most of the disageement recently (on the Last page at lest) come from the issue what would be the best solution for the clam hoarding, but the posters in general tend to agree that the problem exist and require fixing. Personaly despite my personal opinion on this matter I would be very happy with practically any solution endorsed by developers, as long as it would make massive clam hoarding less attractive as it is now. Even if it wouldn't go as far as it as I would wanted it to, any step in right direction is much better than no steps.

Unfortunatly since I haven't seen any developers posting in this thread their opinion, and considering the fact that they are quite active on this forum in general, I can't help but think that they have already considered the matter and dicided that they are indiffernt toward this whole clam thing. But they don't want to post it since they know that some people feel strongly about clams, and being nice guys that they are they don't want to hurt other people feelings. That's pure specualtion on my part of course, since I can't speak for the developers. But if it is so than it is quite sad.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Unfortunatly since I haven't seen any developers posting in this thread their opinion, and considering the fact that they are quite active on this forum in general, I can't help but think that they have already considered the matter and dicided that they are indiffernt toward this whole clam thing.

They've already posted to this thread.

[Stormbinder]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Unfortunatly since I haven't seen any developers posting in this thread their opinion, and considering the fact that they are quite active on this forum in general, I can't help but think that they have already considered the matter and dicided that they are indiffernt toward this whole clam thing.

They've already posted to this thread.

---

You mean "Five bucks to the one who kills the hoarders " line 6 pages ago?

[ April 06, 2004, 03:55: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

[Zapmeister]

What - "5 bucks to kill hoarders line?

Not much, but enough to show that they think that this is a non-issue.

[Chris Byler]

If clams are really that good, just raise them to Water 3. Doubling the up-front cost halves the return on investment, and in addition, it's harder for most nations to obtain the mages that can forge them (water bracelet is Con6).

However, there's another issue that I think is being overlooked. Graeme has said several times that "there is nothing else to do with your water gems besides forge clams" (or words to that effect) and therefore you are not hurting your military power by using water gems for clam forging.

In the opinion of the DomII playing community, is this statement correct? And if so, isn't THAT the real problem? Water was too weak in Dom I - everyone agreed on that. Is it still too weak? And if so, shouldn't it be strengthened?

On the battlefield: maybe water needs a new battlefield spell that would be as scary as Nether Darts or Orb Lightning? Are Falling Frost, Frozen Heart and Ice Strike not up to par? Or is the general idea of loading a mage with gems to use combat spells not worthwhile in a competitive environment? What about Water Elementals? They cost gems now (like all Dom2 elementals), but are still pretty effective for a modest gem cost. Do they need to be improved?

Rituals: Winter Wolves not measuring up? How about doubling the gem cost and number of wolves summoned (thus requiring fewer mages for the same wolf output)? Or how about a new water summon? Giant turtles perhaps (amphibious, size 6, very high protection, high strength bite attack)? Yetis (high hp, strength, size 3, moderate protection, cold resistant, claws+bite, you get a nice sized pack with each summon)? I think the change in seasonals was intended to move the game away from massing ethereal summons. But there's no reason that corporeal summons can't be strong and cheap enough to make a nice supplement to a conventional army.

Some have already suggested a ritual that makes all troops in a given province amphibious (either for a limited time, or permanently). Or how about a one-province Version of Thetis Blessing (spending extra gems to set the duration like Astral Window)? These could help water nations bring their aquatic troops onto land, or help a land nation invade the ocean.

Items: Water has some pretty good items already. One of the better low level weapons, Boots of Quickness, Water Bracelet, Rime Hauberk, Bottle of Living Water and of course the subject of this thread, Clam of Pearls.

Passive ability: Every path of magic gives its mages some ability. Nature gives supply, fire gives leadership and attack, earth gives protection, death gives fear and undead leadership, etc. Water gives water breathing to the mage and ONE unit per level of water magic. This is, frankly, pathetic, especially on a path that is already among the weakest in most other areas. Instead, why not let a water mage bring ALL his troops underwater? Most mages have low leadership anyway, but the few who have good leadership (or +leadership items) can lead whole armies underwater. Or at least raise it to 5-10 troops (or 10 total size of troops) per level of water magic. One unit per level is horrible, even if the unit is a Crusher or similar expensive summon (of a non-water path, I don't see any water unit that would be worth bringing).

[Darryl]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
However, there's another issue that I think is being overlooked. Graeme has said several times that "there is nothing else to do with your water gems besides forge clams"

This seems to me to be a major problem. As far as I can see (and I'm FAAAAR from an expert) there are 4 major uses for water:

1) Water breathing
2) Quickness ("Boots of" or the spell)
3) Clam of Pearls
4) Kill your own mages (Breath of Winter, and yes I'm still bitter)

Do people use water for anything else?

The kill your own mages one influences me to keep water mages out of battles unless I feel like micromanaging their position on the battlefield and who guards them and where the rest of the army...screw it, just have him forge something! Nothing I need right now? Just make some clams and don't kill anybody!

I guess I do summon Sea Trolls, and I have one in the Hall of Fame mostly due to falling frost. Of course when there is no enemy in range he proceeds to cast Breath of Winter thereby ensuring he can kill some of my people to stay in the HoF (I've taken care of the troops finally, but I'm still bitter...)

In the opinion of the DomII playing community, is this statement correct? And if so, isn't THAT the real problem?

It seems to be pretty weak if you ask me.

On the battlefield: maybe water needs a new battlefield spell that would be as scary as Nether Darts or Orb Lightning? Are Falling Frost, Frozen Heart and Ice Strike not up to par?

Falling frost seems to be enough to get a commander into the HoF. And he's in a squad with titans, so that's not too shabby.

Some have already suggested a ritual that makes all troops in a given province amphibious (either for a limited time, or permanently). Or how about a one-province Version of Thetis Blessing (spending extra gems to set the duration like Astral Window)? These could help water nations bring their aquatic troops onto land, or help a land nation invade the ocean.

Kinda like that idea. I like Yetis too.

Passive ability: Every path of magic gives its mages some ability. Nature gives supply, fire gives leadership and attack, earth gives protection, death gives fear and undead leadership, etc. Water gives water breathing to the mage and ONE unit per level of water magic. This is, frankly, pathetic, especially on a path that is already among the weakest in most other areas. Instead, why not let a water mage bring ALL his troops underwater? Most mages have low leadership anyway, but the few who have good leadership (or +leadership items) can lead whole armies underwater. Or at least raise it to 5-10 troops (or 10 total size of troops) per level of water magic. One unit per level is horrible, even if the unit is a Crusher or similar expensive summon (of a non-water path, I don't see any water unit that would be worth bringing).

I have to agree here. When I first found out that "bring some friends along" meant 1 per unit of magic my first thought was "useless" and I proceeded to plan on making items and completely ignoring any water magic on a mage for purposes of taking troops into water. Why not have it like nature: 5 people per level? Then that could actually be used, but a level 6 water mage (twice the level of "master" in the game) can take a whopping SIX people into the water? Wow. If you use any type of army this is negligible.

[Zapmeister]

Do people use water for anything else?

Ice Devils are often a good reason to put water on your pretender.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
However, there's another issue that I think is being overlooked. Graeme has said several times that "there is nothing else to do with your water gems besides forge clams" (or words to that effect) and therefore you are not hurting your military power by using water gems for clam forging.

Cleary an exaggeration IMHO. There are definitely usefull things to do with water gems, and not using them does have a cost. Sea Trolls, Water Queens, Frost Blades, Quickness boots, Quickening, Frozen Heart, and Murdering Winter are all effective. The contention that Murdering Winter isn't usefull borders on ludicrious IMHO.

In the opinion of the DomII playing community, is this statement correct? And if so, isn't THAT the real problem? Water was too weak in Dom I - everyone agreed on that. Is it still too weak? And if so, shouldn't it be strengthened?

I definitely agree that water is the weakest path, although not by so much as I used to think.

I like the ideas you have for improving it, especially the new summons and passive abilities. Another way would be to lower the casting level of some existing spells, as one of the things really hampering water is the lack of usefull lower levels spells.