Completely OT : Cannes, Mickael Moore and the Iraq War

[geoschmo]

Sorry in advance if I offend anyone with this one, but it was too good not to post.

Personally, I think Secretary Powell may be exagerating just a bit again...




[ May 27, 2004, 13:04: Message edited by: geoschmo ]

[Slynky]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

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History DOES show one thing, though...a rather miserable track record of "walking into other countries" and helping set up a government and leader (can you say, "Manuel Noriega, Ferdinand Marcos, Baby "Doc" Duvalier, and the ex-Shah of Iran"?).

Actually, the track record is overall pretty neutral. Consider nations such as Japan and Germany after WWII. Definitely new governments were set up after "walking into" these nations.

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I was referring to countries that the US decided needed a change of leadership (and then helped instigate it), NOT countries that went to war with us (and therefore, "earned" the US interest in establishing new leadership THAT way). A difference, the way I see it.

[minipol]

Originally posted by geoschmo:
Sorry in advance if I offend anyone with this one, but it was too good not to post.

Personally, I think Secretary Powell may be exagerating just a bit again...

hehe, good one. maybe Powell says what it would look like if he got himself upgraded to an ICBM sized thingie

[AMF]

The Michael Moore movie has been released and reviewed by Fox news. Since they are generally considered a "right-wing" news source, and it would be expected that they would trash it, I wanted to post their review here. (fm: http://www.foxnews.com/printer_frien...22680,00.html)

'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations

Tuesday, June 15, 2004

By Roger Friedman

The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" a standing ovation Last night at the Ziegfeld Theatre premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged at all to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host and writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element. But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" ? as we saw Last night ? is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty, and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice. Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets like Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say. Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and Bin Laden families.

First, I know you want to know who came to the Ziegfeld, so here is just a partial list. Besides Franken and Robbins, Al Sharpton, Mike Myers, Tony Bennett, Glenn Close, Gretchen Mol (newly married over the weekend to director Todd Williams), Lori Singer, Tony Kushner, "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt, Jill Krementz and Kurt Vonnegut, Lauren Bacall (chatting up a fully refurbished Lauren Hutton), Richard Gere, John McEnroe and Patti Smythe, former Carter cabinet member and ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Carson Daly, NBC's Jeff Zucker, a very pregnant Rory Kennedy, playwright Israel Horovitz, Macaulay Culkin, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kyra Sedgwick, Linda Evangelista, Ed Bradley, Tom and Meredith Brokaw, director Barry Levinson, NBC anchor Brian Williams, Vernon Jordan, Eva Mendez, Sandra Bernhard and the always humorous Joy Behar.

If that's not enough, how about Yoko Ono, accompanied by her son, Sean, who's let his hair grow out and is now sporting a bushy beard that makes him look like his late, beloved father John Lennon?

And then, just to show you how much people wanted to see this film, there was Martha Stewart, looking terrific. I mean, talk about eclectic Groups!

Now, unless you've been living under a rock you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.

But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Michigan mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide ? just like the commercials say ? and lives to regret it. Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely Middle American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.

"F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African American congressmen and women voting against the war with Iraq and wondering why there are no Senators to support them. Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not speaking out against the war, and I would have liked to have seen that.

On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience. The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.

More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker. And that's where Disney's Michael Eisner comes in. Not releasing this film will turn out to be the curse of his career. When Eisner came into Disney years ago, the studio was at a low point. He turned it around with a revived animation department and comedy hits like "Pretty Woman" and "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." But Eisner's short-sightedness on many recent matters has been his undoing. And this Last misadventure is one that will follow him right out the doors of the Magic Kingdom.

[AMF]

Of interest, an article on the report of the partially released 9/11 Commission titled "9/11 Panel Finds No Collaboration Between Iraq, Al Qaeda"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

Originally posted by Simeron:
Checking with my buds on the Al Q links.

[Atrocities]

Thanks for the info. Never the less I have no intention of seeing this documentary nor will I validate Moore by giving him phraise when he does not deserve any. If this movie would have been released in 2001 it would have suicide for him. He rolled the dice and is now raking in the $ knowning full well that there is very little truth to his subjective - decidedly one sided - attack on Bush.

Oh well, free speech and all.

[AMF]

But, dude, uh....you haven't seen the movie. How do you know? I mean, ad hominem and all that, right?

My opinion? I think that our society, especially lately, is too partisan and has lost the ability to debate logically. Personal example: I haven't seen Passion of the Christ movie, so I try not to comment on it. I'd like to see it, I've even brought up the idea of seeing it to my wife. That didn't go too far, let me tell ya. I say, see it so I can comment on it from an informed perspective, she says not a chance she's seeing it.

Another example, a bit more personal: For years I was pro gun-control. But I was never really informed on the issue, I admit. After many discussions with others who were very pro-NRA (some of them even having been in "militias") I got a new appreciation of the whole issue. While I disagree with much of their reasoning, I do understand how they feel the way they do and nowadays I'm pretty open about gun ownership.

Now, admittedly, some issues have chasms that people can't bridge since they are values-based, rather than process-based or fact-based. Abortion is the perrenial example. I think I have a pretty good handle on the arguments on both sides of the issue, and, alas, in the end it comes down to values - not facts, or anything else.

So, for those reasons, I do read Fox News, I do listen to O'Reilly (when I've the time) and I do thumb through both conservative and progressive news magazines, etc...

I guess th epoint being is that, from Logic 101, any given argument must be judged on its merits alone, not on the person making the argument.

Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

Just my .02c...

Alarik

Originally posted by Atrocities:
...there is very little truth to his subjective - decidedly one sided - attack on Bush.

[ June 16, 2004, 17:11: Message edited by: alarikf ]

[Atrocities]

You make good points, but the problem with Moore is that he HATES debating his point of view. He just wants everyone to accept it as reality when in fact it is just jibberish and conspiricy theories.

There is no debating this movie. It is a one sided representation of one mans hatred of another. Nuff said.

Why would I want to pay Moore to see his no counter point documentarial attack on the Bush when he himself has admitted that it is a bit "far fetched" and such. Hell if Disney pulled it from the US market then you know there was something wrong with it.

(edit) I may not have seen this latest movie but I have seen Roger and Me and his tv spots where he took the NRA interview completely out of context and made the entire organization out to be the next Nazi's of America.

Many phraised Moore as a man of the people and thanked him for his work on exposing the evil within the NRA. (LOL) Then when the NRA published the whole interview and showed the world what he did, and well his credibility went out the window.

With Mr. Moore it is all about credibility; he has none. He makes documentaries/movies based on his view of the subject and does not allow for any other interpitation. That makes his works one sided and open to attack. If he would do a real movie about the facts and have counter point, then no one would go see them. So again, he sticks to his one sided skewed view of a subject and ramps up all the publicity and controversy he can get in order to get people to watch his movies.

The thing is he is a great story tellor, I would love to see what he could do if he put aside his politic views and made a real documentary based on real facts and not conspiricy.

I recall in the earily 90's he was going to do a documentary on how NASA faked the moon landing and how they dilibrately blew up the Challenger in order to kill a whistle blower. That project was understandably declined by every one to whom he pitched it. (Thank God.)

Moore has a talent for P/O people and it is really a shame that he doesn't put his gift to better use in making movies and or documentaries that everyone can enjoy.

In the end whatever side you choose it all boils down to what you believe. I like the fact that some people choose to be informed and refuse to eat the crap the our media is fixated upon shovelling. But honestly this whole thing is just one long chapter in human history. In the end we will be right back where we started having learned nothing and forgotten everything.

And the page turns.

Thought experiment: if "Farenheit 9/11" had been made by Rush Limbaugh but was otherwise exactly the same, would you see it?

No I would not. Again it boils down to a one side view. I just want the full picture not someones subjective views on it who refuse to listen to or suffor counter opinions.

[ June 16, 2004, 17:44: Message edited by: Atrocities ]

[PvK]

Originally posted by dogscoff:
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Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?
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Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK

[Slynky]

Originally posted by PvK:

quote:

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Originally posted by dogscoff:
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Are you sure you're watching the news and not the Cosby Show?
...

Good point... The Cosby Show is way more intelligent and open-minded than the current US entertainment/corporateagenda/news/entertainment/industry.

PvK

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Actually, I read (a long time ago) that the Cosby Show contained subtle racism...that there was an intent in the show to show caucasions in the same kind of negative light that some many shows (before that) showed African-Americans.