OT: US Pres election

[Gandalf Parker]

I wouldnt bet on what "America knows".
It might seem one way amoung a person and his peers,
but the polls show it to be an amazingly close race so far.

[Skirmisher]

Originally Posted by Gandalf Parker

I wouldnt bet on what "America knows".
It might seem one way amoung a person and his peers,
but the polls show it to be an amazingly close race so far.

I don't trust polls, they are used to mold public opinion. They just want to make the race seem close. McCain thinks what the current president is doing is just wonderful, the public does not.

[thejeff]

Yeah, but Obama's black.

That still counts a lot more than it should.

[Ballbarian]

I tend not to trust polls either (as I stated previously). They can be manipulated too easily by the crafter of the questions. In my own community it looks to be a close race.

I work in a county government office and you can bet that I get to hear a lot from the community about their political views. My primary function is as Deputy Treasurer / System Administrator (small county!) and I often work the elections just to help the County Clerk's Office when they are shorthanded so I get a fair amount of exposure to the public. In my state the governor is a Democrat but the tendency has been to elect Republicans. I for one tended to vote Democrat during the Clinton years, but have always prided myself on my independence (little 'i' as in not affiliated with any party). I find myself tempted over the last eight years of "Bush bashing" to vote a party line where a "D" next to your name guarantees that my vote goes to the other guy. I am sure that I won't go that route, but you might get a sense of my disgust with partisan politics in general. Both parties are guilty of it, but the constant undermining of the currently elected president (be he Democrat or Republican) pisses me off and tempts a retributive vote.

All that said, those who know me, know that I usually keep my political and religious views pretty close to the vest. I just find the silence of folks who share my point of view deafening (because I suspect that many don't frequent these boards) and I would hate for anyone reading this thread to think that everyone hated President Bush, wouldn't vote for John McCain, and disagreed with the decision to finish what was started in Iraq.

Will that make me the most popular fella on the forums? Probably not. But please know that I respect the views of all of the previous posters and even consider many of you friends.

(Oh, and for what it is worth, I don't give a rat's butt what color any of the candidates are.)

[Skirmisher]

What was started in Iraq should never have been started, it's a complete waste of human life and money. Now to say we have to stay the course and keep spending an incredible amount of money. Thats just dumb.
I can't agree with that line of thinking.
Current events indicate that Afghanistan isn't going so good. Iraq was the
administrations prime blunder. Surely Pakistan, a country that actually has nuclear weapons (and a whole lot of extremists) should have been considered first, no?

I don't see alot of people that are getting hit on the chin by this economy rushing out to vote for the old guy who believes this was all sound judgement. George W Bush's approval is at an all time low, and McCain will pay for that.
We needed this regime change 4 years ago.

Anyways I'd just like to say I respect everybodies right to an opinion.

[HoneyBadger]

I didn't think the war in Iraq was a blunder-a mess yes, but not a stupid mistake on the part of the Bush administration. War is never a mistake, when it comes to political favor. Even the Vietnam War didn't usher Nixon out of office.

And as far as Bush-bashing goes, the American people, as a whole, were *behind* Bush when 9/11 happened. The Iraq war sounded like a good idea then-we were going to get rid of Saddam, and the weapons of mass delusion, and then take out the terrorists, using Iraq as a staging ground.

My dad, for instance-an extremely bright and talented man, who's also quite reactionary and a lot more right-winged than I'm entirely comfortable with-loved and praised and defended Bush to me when he first entered office. For the several months in office, he was a "savior" and "the best man for the office", because he was going to whip the terrorists Texas-fashion (single-handed and bare-fisted, if need be), restore the country's pride in the whitehouse, and then lift our economy to unforseen new heights.

Now my dad hates him. Can't stand Bush. Misses Clinton-which at the time he couldn't stand.

Bush and his cabinet screwed the pooch. Plain and simple. If he and his followers had made better choices, people wouldn't *be* bashing him. It wasn't the war on terrorism that unmade Bush, it was Hurricane Katrina, and the gas prices, and the fact that even isolationist America doesn't like being spit on by other countries-and we really don't like it when the other countries have good reasons to spit on us.

Bush is a joke, because he's made of himself a laughing-stock. Not because he's Republican, or rich, or war-mongering, or any of those things. It's because he's a goofy bastard that can't do the job-and consistently rubs our faces in the fact that he can't do the job. The fact that Cheney managed to shoot his best friend in the face, while in office, didn't help things either.

Bashing Clinton because he had sex with an intern is lame, irrelevant, and sensationalist. Bashing Bush because his cronies let a bunch of Americans die unnecessarily, and made the world hate us, and are systematically destroying American businesses, the environment, and the Constitution, is just being sensible and patriotic.

I do know exactly what you mean, Ballbarian-I've lived under the same system you have, for over 30 years, and I'm open to your way of thinking. I don't like how irresponsible and irreverent-to-the-point-of-blasphemy-and-disgrace the media is, either, but there's a time and a place for questioning our leadership, as free citizens who are also responsible for the freedoms we have--and this is it.

And I'm hoping that the black thing will even itself out, actually--there are lots and lots of traditionally conservative states that also have large Black and Hispanic populations, and Utah's one of them. It might actually work in Obama's favor. I can see lots of people not wanting to vote for Obama, but I can't see that many people actually bothering to vote for Mccain.

[Agema]

I thought I'd also flag up two articles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/bu...in&oref=slogin

http://www.slate.com/id/2199810/


Both examine similar statistical measures. It's fascinating to see that apparently, the Democrats have historically done a better job of running the economy. Not only that, but the Republicans have also massively benefitted the wealthier compared to the poorer.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Skirmisher

George W Bush's approval is at an all time low

And Congress' approval rating is even lower, yet an incumbent losing is rare enough to be major news.

Part of the problem is that a majority of voters in each district think their Congressmen are doing a good job, and it's all the idiots that the other districts keep electing to office that are screwing things up.

I've voted in every election since '82, yet I've never voted for either my current House Representative, or his predecessor.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadger

Even the Vietnam War didn't usher Nixon out of office.

But it did force Johnson not to run for re-election.

[Agema]

Sorry for the double post but...

We all know now that two of the most prominent reasons to invade Iraq (WMD, Saddam supporting terrorism) were a load of utter rubbish, and we were sold a pack of lies where contradictory evidence was removed and the evidence supporting it inflated. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are now dead (although things wouldn't have been much better under Saddam), thousands of servicemen from various countries are dead. It's incited terrorism against the West, and the country was heavily infested by Al-Qaida, which before it had no support there. It's still in near civil-war. And then there's the stuff like Abu Ghraib.

Iraq is not just a mess. It is a blunder. A vast, overwhelming blunder, which made the USA/UK look aggressive, hypocritical, and stupid. It has devastated our international respect and political power, and also shown the limitations of our military. The cost has been enormous as well.

Ballbarian stated "the constant undermining of the currently elected president (be he Democrat or Republican) pisses me off and tempts a retributive vote". Leaders are always undermined because that's just the way it is: they will have opponents and critics. But I'll tell you why this president is being particularly undermined. He has been awful, and his sub-30% approval ratings prove the point. Criticism is the stick that encourages good performance. If presidents (or anyone in any task) don't perform well, it's entirely right and proper people beat them with that stick.