MP Game - Try Something New

[Wyxard]

I was still running 2.12 as I didn't recieve an in game message or see one here that it had upgraded to 2.14
(above, when switched to 48 hours, he questions whether we upgraded)
so I guess this could result in the discrepancy, although my question now is, if I had the correct Version, would I have won on the main computer as well? ie did I see a valid film of how it should have basically panned out since my computer had all the data concerning the armies on both sides and somehow with the different Versions, my armies data was sent to the host incorrectly, so it ran the battle with erroneous data on my army, or would the patch have swung the battle completely the other way? and I think former is probably correct, since it is hard to see how I could have won one by so much and lost the other by so much.
so I guess I got screwed by not having the same Version running (since noone said anything)

Wyxard

[Cainehill]

There was a number of Posts in this thread suggesting that your problem was the incorrect dominions Version, including mine on the 18th where I said I was pretty sure it was running 2.14, so it's not like you couldn't / shouldn't have known.

But no - you still wouldn't have won, because the server calculates the battle results. What you would have seen was the actual way the battle had proceeded, so you could see exactly what happened and what led to the destruction of your army - spell targeting differences that might have led to huge quick changes in how many mages were left, a charm spell that nailed your best commander, etc.

[Soapyfrog]

Precisely. The replay was wrong. Even such changes as the burning pearl going from 100% to 50% fire resistance would ahve a fairly significant impact on battle outcomes for example.

[Wyxard]

i still think it was waaaay different, I can't see how a few changes from a patch could have completely changed a battle outcome that wasn't even close. if it was close, i could understand, but all the way one side to all the way the other??? this means it completely nerfed all my commanders, and made all his 100x stronger? unlikely,
more likely it disrupted the data set, so it calculated the battle using incorrect info for my army. my film used old Version data, and got a more realistic result. if the patch did change the strength of his theugs, and air queens, then it made them much to powerful. if you saw the film, and knew the armies, I hope you would agree, again, it wasn't even close, I slaughtered him, and didn't lose any leaders, or maybe a few to him losing all? if one item can change this result that much, it is unbalancing.
it is my fault for not having the correct Version, but I beleive you said in the earlier post you "thought" we were playing the new patch. it would be nice to let everyone know officially in the game and out here in the forums if something like this changes, especially if, as you say, it makes this much difference in battles
Wyxard

[Cainehill]

No, Wyxard. It doesn't even need an item or spell that changed from Version to Version for the replay to be completely, 100% different. Think of it in terms of a dice game, where what you saw was the result of one set of random dice rolls, instead of a different set of dice rolls.

If a Charm spell was cast on one of your leaders on the first round, and one dice roll meant it was successful, and another dice roll meant it wasn't, that can _totally_ change the battle results, especially given somewhat retarded spell casting AI.

For instance - I've seen one of my mages get charmed. Oops - one of my other mages is scripted to cast Blade Wind, and casts it on the charmed mage who is in the middle of my other mages. There goes 9 or so mages, just like that. If the charm spell hadn't been successful, the blade wind would have been cast elsewhere, and I wouldn't have lost 9 mages right away.

Or think in terms of the Japanese game Pachinko. Hey - it's the exact same playing board, the same pins, the same size ball, but the result is completely different each time.

[Wyxard]

While theoretically posible, this seeems highly unlikely and I believe players would not stand for this much "swing" in an individual battle, the game would be vertually unplayable. you are implying that the change meant that I went from killing 8 theug in the first blade wind to 2 total leaders in the entire battle? that would require me to have gone from normal roles killing half (as it statistically should be, given their lack of armor) to rolling like all 2's for every role for most of the battle.
while statistically possible, given the number of men/leaders, and number of roles, I should have killed a lot more. the Data had to be corrupted/altered.
again, statistically, given enough time and monkeys, you can get a monkey to type the complete works of william shakespear, but this is not likeley, nor would people play a game relying on one to do so.
if you imply that a "simple" change can alter a Major battle this much (it wasn't even close) then that would unbalance the game and make it unplayable for how could you plan offensives? with all these roles, by the law of averages, the battles should play out essentially the same with a few leaders/ men killed one way or the other, but a much stronger army will eventually win due to the numbers.

Wyxard

PS- speaking to some of the other players, they were/are also not aware that the game had been undated to 2.14, since the only reference said we may playing the new Version, but noone said officially (in game or forum) that we all should upgrade, so many like myself simply stayed with the old Version 2.12

[Cainehill]

You weren't aware? What part of, "Unless I'm mistaken, the game is running on 2.14, so any of the older Versions would give the hallucinatory battle replays" didn't you understand? That was posted on the 18th, the same day you first started complaining about strange battle results. If nothing else, a reasonably bright person would have _tried_ looking at the battle results with Version 2.14 to see if it matched the actual outcome.

And you don't think players would stand for that much swing? Guess what - obviously they do. You fought Pythium - I'm guessing you attacked him. The _VERY FIRST THING_ that would happen is his spells - soul slays, enslave minds, things that could have killed, charmed, or temporarily incapicitated some of your mages. That totally changes the results of the entire battle.

It's just like when you have a squad of 30 troops with decent morale, and 10 bloody archers shoot, not killing any of them. 90% of the time the squad keeps going. 10% of the time, the squad routs without taking any casualties, completely changing the outcome of the battle.

In Dungeons and Dragons terms, it's like 1st level characters attacking 10 goblins. If one of the goblins gets lucky and hits the 4 HP magic user with an arrow, the magic user goes unconscious, doesn't cast the sleep spell that would have knocked most or all of the goblins unconscious, and so a good part of the party dies. If the arrow missed or hit someone else, the sleep spell would have gone off and the battle would have been a smashing success.

According to you this would be "too much swing" and players would never put up with such a game. Sheesh.

[Wyxard]

first, I agree in small terms, such a squad of archers, or a 1st level man attacking a level 10 man, this is a simple swing of one event, but an entire battle is different, this is too much to accept, especially when his mages are low level, not casting the spells you mention above - tho I did have high level mages casting similar spells you mention above (see reference to monkeys above and discussion below)
as for reasonable bright person, I guess you are saying that a lot of the other players in the game are equally not bright, since others are still playing the old Version, since there was no ingame announcement.
(and I was unaware that the different Versions resulting in the battle changes until after this whole discussion began, in the future, I would check that)

please see copy of post to Routing Bug for more theories below

ok...

I upgraded and watched the battle with the new Version.
the battle did come out as the message said, with the altered ending, BUT, that is because the orders were changed, (which I know because with the old Version, my orders were mostly carried out)and the die roles went very askew .
the updated Version film had all my mass protected trolls, (30) just standing around, not even attacking, getting hit over and over with stellar castcades, and my iron dragons didn't even move for almost the entire battle, just sat there and did nothing, and my spell casting was comletely screwed up. (again, in the first Version, they all moved as ordered, so something deleted their orders)
now I understand that the AI sometimes changes things, but in my Version most went as planned, in this Version a whole lot of leaders/men just sat around getting slaughtered, and very few of my scripted spells were cast.
still, with 40 or so crossbow with flaming arrow, wind guide, relief, and arrow fend, I should have done a lot more damage than the "updated" Version showed.

so... I believe the Dom 2 web site should say using different Versions may "incorrectly" change the results of a battle due to Data Alteration, resulting in a different film , not just that the film may be different. the new film definitely had something wrong with it - hence the completely unbelievable/unlikely/incorrect result

Wyxard

anyway, I am tired of this discussion, as you seem to be getting emotional and making personal attacks.
If it really was just bad luck those times that a 90% victory with 100+ large creatures/men and 13 mostly high level leaders full of magic items went to a total loss, then so be it. but my personal opinion is that the different Versions of the game resulted in incorrect data and incorrect/impossible results, not just a different possbile result/film.

[Wyxard]

after upgrading to 2.14 I watched the new film that correlates with the server results. The battle runs completely differently than my film using 2.12
Most of my commands are changed, unlike in the 2.12 Version where they are mostly carried out (with the normal variations of the AI), in the 2.14 Version, large Groups of men/trolls just stand around getting slaughtered by spells, not engaging, my iron dragons just sit and do nothing until attacked at the end, my spell casters don't do a whole lot,and when they do cast spells, the are mostly ineffective, essentially it looks like something is wrong, not just a different plausible variation running with different die roles. I can email the turn to anyone that wants to view it under both Versions, as there is a huge difference.
my email is Wyxarddom2@yahoo.com
I will also try and email the turn to Ilwinter
Thanks for everyones input
Wyxard

[Soapyfrog]

Possible orders/scripts issued under 2.12 do not process properly on the 2.14 server? Sounds like SOMETHING is borked!