Time for a poll. (The subject is abuse)

[Sombre]

I'm sorry I don't buy that in the slightest. There's nothing particularly unconventional about dominions at its core and it isn't so varied or complex that you can't work towards balance. Balancing increases replay value not by making all elements the same, but by ensuring different elements can effectively be used and different paths explored. Certain elements need to be improved, certain others need to be weakened.

You talk about what is 'easier' as if that is what will be done. Yes, the easiest way to balance the game is to make all sides the same, all maps the same, all spells the same. But no-one is suggesting that and it isn't going to happen. The kind of balancing that we're realistically talking about is the fixing of the overpowered and, judging from what happened with LA Abysia, MA Mictlan, LA and MA Ulm etc, addition and boosting of national units and spells.

Beyond that the main balancing movement is CBM, which again aims to increase variety through balancing, toning down the overpowered and boosting the weak. Is that in your opinion heading towards a less varied game with restricted replay value?


I personally haven't been part of a game that's been 'ruined' by balancing. Even when people describe these 'horror story' examples of balancing from other games I rarely have much sympathy. I remember a friend telling me about some online WW2 shooter where far and away the best weapon was the shotgun, which everyone used. So people banned 'shotgun whoring' on certain servers and there was a backlash of people complaining that if everyone could pick the shotgun it was fair. Then the makers of the game toned down the shotgun so it wasn't obviously better than all the other guns. My friend quit in disgust. Why? I guess because he liked killing people with the shotgun who hadn't worked out it was the only weapon worth picking. I'm not saying MoD/SoW is the 'shotgun' here, just talking about balancing and fixing in general. To me a game where the elements are different but equally effective (if you use them correctly, in the correct context) is far more interesting than one where a handful of elements are simply more effective. Especially when those elements are flat out cheesy like MoD/SoW, or in some other game, spamming stuff on a spawn point or doorway. Clearly fun for some people, but not at all for me. Looks bad, plays bad, is bad.

[Cerlin]

In response to triqui, I do think that spells do not work as intended should be fixed by the dev's. I did not say that i consider exploits of bugs as legit gaming. Fixing bugs isnt "nerfing."

And Sombre I do not disagree with you, I just do not think I was being clear myself, though you did a good job of it. I do think they should fix things, not so everything is 'the same' but so all countries have a chance. I mean if there is only one late game strat and only say Air countries can counter it, that basically destroys the game for everyone else who wants to play like a fire nation. What Im trying to say is the fact this game has many strategies and just as many counters to those strategies. I enjoy it. I wouldnt like to be beaten by an exploit, but if someone can beat me with a better strategy then mine then they are welcome too. And I am far from a "min/maxer" or "powergamer." I tend to pick nations in this game that are thematically fun to me, then try to make them work.

I have just seen whining do negative things too so I am careful. Since you are using metaphors then so shall I...
When I was playing DAOC, the instance that made me quit was that my favorite character was an Armsman, which is just basically a fighter with a Sword and shield. He was fun for me to play and I did it well (considering the class was considered weak.) But because other warrior types of other nations complained enough they made it so we could kill nothing, and became useless as a class. I am all for balance, I am just afraid of i when it goes too far. That is all.

Please fix the bugs or ban them, I never plan to use power gaming strats like this, I will just continue doing medium in my games and enjoying myself.

[triqui]

Cerlin said:
In response to triqui, I do think that spells do not work as intended should be fixed by the dev's. I did not say that i consider exploits of bugs as legit gaming. Fixing bugs isnt "nerfing."

Fine, my question was "what to do with the glitchy spells until the devs fix them"?. Explicitly... what to do with the broken, bugged, and overpowered mist of deception, that the developers have said it does not work as it should work?

[Cerlin]

I guess I would say that those who do not think it should be used, join games where it is banned from use. And if you like them, make a game where it is ok to use them. Until its fixed.

I am joining a game currently where this combo cannot be used and I am ok with that. The game is more for thematic fun than "I wanna win!!"

[Edi]

I would not be worried about overnerfing. The only example of that in Dominions so far has been the Vampire Queen and the circumstances that led to that are very specific and unusual. Currently that particular overnerf has been sitting on the bug shortlist as a statfix issue for a while. The only thing that I immediately remember as being substantially nerfed over the course of Dom3 has been the Van cavalry and Helhirdings and most of that was done with modest price increases and by changing the Glamour/Mirror Image mechanics so that it became more vulnerable to arrows. Blade Wind is another thing that got toned down some but it's still plenty good enough to use and won't see anymore downsizing.

Johan and Kristoffer will fix the things they consider the most important and the rest will get fixed when it gets fixed. If it gets fixed at all, that is, because some of the more esoteric and minor stuff may well be more trouble to fix than it's worth considering they have a new project underway.

If anyone wants an idea about what the biggest stuff left is, the red items on the shortlist and some of the purple are the ones to look at.

[moderation]

"Hexediting the .2h file to insert unreachable orders
Users may choose only one (132 total votes)
Yes, it's abuse. 116 87%

Mists of Deception + Battlefield Enchantments + Retreat
Users may choose only one (132 total votes)
Yes, it's abuse. 109 82%"

Why are the polls going over one hundred percent? Maybe there's more than one kind of cheating going on here...

[Tuidjy]

Your browser must be displaying the results in a weird manner. What I see makes
it rather clear that, out of 132 people who voted, 116 thought it was abuse.

(116 / 132 = 0.87, i.e 87 percents.)

[Rathar]

It's how many people voted followed by the % that represents.

Err, what he said, nod.

[Agema]

I think there is a 'spirit' to a game.

Take diving in football. I think it was only recently made illegal, but for a long time before that it was considered bad to do. Many bug exploits described here generally fall into this sort of category. Not strictly illegal or impossible via the game mechanics, but 'unsportsmanlike': disrespectful not just to the game but to fellow players.

To change my analogy slightly, we've got a system whereby the referees of the game are the fellow players. A system could work thus: If there's potential bug-exploiting, the player on the receiving end should say in the file, the players can vote democratically, and decide what happens. Clear the accused; give them a yellow card; or red card the offender and set them to AI or get a sub. If the offence is deemed sufficiently unbalancing, a turn rollback could occur.

If you want to use one of these strategies even when it is not stated beforehand they are unfair, you take your continued presence in the game into your own hands.

[Wauthan]

Agema makes a good point. There might be need of a spirit of sportmanship, well more then usual atleast, when playing Dominions 3. The point of most games is to have fun more then once after all.

Just take situation when a newbie goes up against a veteran. There are so many subtle mechanics in this game that the veteran could steamroll the newbie, regardless of any previous strategy game experience. While it would hardly be considered abusive to exploit someones lack of experience I still reckon that many would "pull their punches", and help out by pointing out mistakes common amongst new players.

Mists of Deception + Battlefield Enchantments + Retreat is a different breed of beast but still... It's not exactly abusive, just mindnumbingly annoying, since it's a tactic available for both sides. For me it has been fairly easy to control. I just asked my fellow players not to use that particular strategy, and promised to do the same.

Granted, it's way easier to create "houserules" with ones friends then with complete strangers but the community for dominions is small enough for it to hurt if your playstyle gets you shunned.