AI Campaign => For a Challenging AI opponent

[JLS]

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

How much mining would you want PTF, you know the AI cant keep up, do you want a BASE or a SHIP to robo-mine 10000 resources well thats more then trade with any player, heck that is more then most planets can produce.

RESTRICTIONS
JLS lets start the game at Cruisers I think scouts are to restrictive.

Reduce warhead size and have 20 of them so I can take out Baseships with one tiny scout, instead just damaging them as it is now with with my one Temporal Ram scout.

I like the Resource Station, it is a first. But really, why give them only this at the most per STATION?

1800 Minerals
1800 RADS
300 Orgainics
More depending on the Planets percentage.

Per turn from one BASE and this includes auto refuiling in most systems .

I think you should raise this to 3000 even 10000 for all resources per turn per base, what would this do to a se4 game?

(1)~ If you start at Medium Tech Start you will be close to what you desire GLV, please remember the AI will also be at a Medium Tech Start (However AI is slightly limited at onset)

(2) Your point is made with the Cobalt Warheads on Ram Ships GLV, however there are currently (NO) load restrictions and the values are basicly the same as stock se4.
With the addition of an option not a restriction


(3)~ I feel PTF is correct here, the intrinsic minerals, Rads and could be raised on the AIC Resource Station (a little) and this will play well with Fyrons FQM maps and should not have such a large impact on the General and AIC maps.

= = =

In general what I think would happen to se4 and any MOD with to much in the way of Robo-Minning.
Force other Human Players in a Multi-Player game to match a MINNING strategy; especially in a map with many asteroids and moons. With all this Micro-management required it may make a PBM game undesirable for many and a LAN game impossible to play in the latter game.
In a game with and against the AI, we know the AI can not build Robo-Miners as per se4 constraints and this will lead to the ability to yield large fleets and overpower the AI and change the balance of a Multiplayer game dramatically.

- - -
With a modest amount resource extraction to be decided by the Players, we would like to see the classic asteroid system with the classic maps, an advantage to have; but not a game winning advantage.


[ January 22, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: JLS ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:
When I play against Human Players I never relly on Minefeilds but PTF you think it is OK against the AI?

Well, if you think using technology is cheating against AI, it can be checked off by game setup (research area). Similar to trade exploits, I do never trade with AI. Mines could be changed to be less destructive also - something like 50 maybe. Or PDF cannons could get some minesweeping ability - like in devnull. I think, if minefields are useless against AI hulls anyway, why bother to research and build them? Why not restrict the according research area at all in this case?

Component restrictions are removed altogether even to engines - especially with QNP, I like to be free to design whatever I like. Organic races should be able to create organic ships, a dreadnought with 3 org. armor components is ...
just not my game.

[ January 22, 2004, 19:21: Message edited by: PsychoTechFreak ]

[Fyron]

I like the Resource Station, it is a first.

Thats not true. I do not recall which mod it was, but I have seen robo miner ships and stations in at least one mod a few years back...

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

Well, if you think using technology is cheating against AI, it can be checked off by game setup (research area). Similar to trade exploits, I do never trade with AI.
Mines could be changed to be less destructive also - something like 50 maybe.

Good point PTF,
Shutting off mines tech is the way to go in Solitaire, if one does not want Mines. However, in a Multiplayer game some players may not want it off.

- - -

Or PDF cannons could get some minesweeping ability - like in devnull.

Devnul is a awesome mod and sure that is an option, but the se4 Classic Mine strategy is not there for Humans versus Human Players. In addition when Devnuls Point Defence at 5 Mines sweeped it is actually almost doubled that of the AIC fixed AI Destroyer Hull MS capabilities of only 3. Now if we load several Devnul Pds that has no LOAD restriction to the AI design they can outsweep almost any AIC AI Hull.

AIC still attempts to preserve the se4 classic Minefield feel with out totally exploiting the AI.

- - -

Component restrictions are removed altogether even to engines - especially with QNP, I like to be free to design whatever I like. Organic races should be able to create organic ships, a dreadnought with 3 org. armor components is ...

Actually you can put 5 Organic armors on any ship not 3, but I see your point.

I placed the restrictions to see how the new 1.84 se update could be utilized. Many like the Armor restrictions since AIC sports many Armour Configurations, but to be Honest with you, I also do not like this restriction and it is gone from Ships and Bases

- - -

I think, if minefields are useless against AI hulls anyway, why bother to research and build them? Why not restrict the according research area at all in this case?

To be honest PTF, mine fields are also almost useless against many experienced Human se4 Players as well, would you not agree?

[ January 22, 2004, 20:20: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by Paul1980au:

You know you can always create new ship classes in the mod section - a few mods exist with new ship types etc. However i would like to see more flexibility in the ship designs aspects.

What new ships designs would you suggest for AIC?

A improved AI would be need - my suggestions for smart mines (with limited movement), cloaking mines (cloaking capacity) and dumb mines of course standard run of the mill mines.

You have an interesting concept here. The main problem as it is now, is that many concepts may not work with the AI.

For example Anti-Engine Mines.

The AI would be crippled not destroyed and stuck at that location (no more engines), yet costing large amounts of support resources and the AI is none the wiser

Further example: In se4 the AI calls its designs to be built by :
Planet Per Item (PPI) and Must Have At Least… Please see reference.

In this example the AI has 5 Dreadnoughts even worse 2 Colony ships as well; disabled by anti-engine mines and unable to fulfill it missions. However the AI sees this and sure it wants them repaired, but it can not get it to return to a Repair Yard. However when the AI Construction File looks at the [Must Have At Least numbers] it has the 5 Dreadnoughts and 2 Colony ships and will not fulfill any Must Have At Least orders because the ships exist.

Please remember, this AI is paying resources for the 5 Dreadnoughts and in stock se4 where only the Best and/or Largest ships is built; this may halt a majority of that Ship Types Construction.
It will certainly slow or even Halt Colony Ship Production…

The AI Ship with disabled engines is a sad sight to see
A designer must consider the PPI also when designing there AI race , however, not to the point where it will break the bank in the late mid to end game
(A planet may have many slots in se4, however many also only have one slot for that AI Minning Facility to support those large Capital Ships)

Any constructive suggestions for possible patch improvements to the mines structure for the v 1.85 eare welcome.

SJ is working on a MOD that may have an alternative to the way Mines are currently handled and I look forward to his work.


Other then that I would like to see the Minefeilds only be placed at Warp points as to represent an area that is funneled and congested so the mine hit will make sence (to me anyway), not in open space or a few in a planets vast orbit.


= = = = = = = = =
Reference

se4 Default_AI_Construction_Vehicles

Entry X Must Have At Least:
Must have this many of this type in existance, or being built.
If not, then build more.
This comes before Planet Per Item.

AI State := Infrastructure
Num Queue Entries := 39
Entry 1 Type := Defense Base
Entry 1 Planet Per Item := 100
Entry 1 Must Have At Least := 0
Entry 2 Type := Attack Ship
Entry 2 Planet Per Item := 20
Entry 2 Must Have At Least := 2
Entry 3 Type := Colonizer
Entry 3 Planet Per Item := 80
Entry 3 Must Have At Least := 1
Entry 4 Type := Weapon Platform
Entry 4 Planet Per Item := "
Entry 4 Must Have At Least := "

[ January 22, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by PsychoTechFreak:

I think it is all right as long as mines are not completely useless against AI,

Agreed PTF, we will keep at it to make it better

- - -

I mean a 100 mines (if it is restricted to that number) swept by 2 large AI transporters could be kinda overpowered and annoying.

100 mines in a sector is the default with AIC as it is in se4, a larger setting is possible.
However the AI has a daunting task constructing and placing 100 mines per field, can you imagine the AI needing to double that effort

Yes the Human Player can load Mine Sweeper Components in total on Medium Transports, do you recommend this be restricted?

- - -

I have got another issue now, I am not sure how the AIC community thinks about it, let's discuss...

Personally, I do not like restrictions to players at all, especially for ship designs. I mean, it is ok if it is for roleplaying matters to restrict yourself not to build things like organic armor ram ships, massive remote mining battle stations and whatnot, but I think it could be better to do this on a voluntary basis.I always remove all restrictions to numbers of components (which is almost every component), otherwise I would never build a remote mining station with only 3 miners, or a resource station - as far as I have seen it even has got a restriction to one per unit, it is just a waste in space, so I never build any of them.

Thank you for the presented issues, the best way to handle Restrictions would be a one by one basis.

Ram Ship Cobalt Warheads are not restricted in AIC and you also have the ability that is restricted in se4 lifted so in AIC you may load them in total on Transports, for a neat Horatio Nelson fire ship.

Organic Armour is at 5 max, this was all discussed many months ago about restricting armor. Moreover, I am also partial to lifting the armor restriction as well. However, other players were adament about this issue as it applies to haveing restrictions on armor.

The AI is not overly effected even by its current designs by any changes with armor restrictions; so sure we have total freedom here.
However, this may yield advantages to other race types.
Many felt that the Organics have the armor avantage at 5, plus combine this with other PvK v4.11 armors. Then the advantage is followed by the Crysteline...

The removal of the Armor restrictions will only play into the Temporals and Cryseline favor; races with early armor skiping weapons and further distence Psychic and other race advantages

In jest "I have tons of armor on my ships and your investment is worthless to my weapons"
However their claims may be just nitpicking?

Remote Mining should be modest in nature.
However, what would you recommend for possible per turn ship/base gross robo-minning net numbers with a 100% planet value?



[ January 22, 2004, 23:19: Message edited by: JLS ]

[JLS]

Originally posted by oleg:
I always thought the whole mine system in SEIV is rather silly and I am perfectly happy this exploit does not work against AIC AIs at all. Good ridance, just MHO.

Agreed

[JLS]

Originally posted by Grand Lord Vito:

I agree with Oleg, the AI in se4 never dealt with mines as far as I am concerned getting rid of mines all together is fine by me if no one likes your compromise JLS.

As PTF points out, you will have the option to turn off the mine tech and this works for me

- - -

In multiplier or solitaire games, with se4 and most MODS against an inexperienced Player or any AI, I do not even need to worry about Weapon Platforms, troops or any Planet defense just Mines.

When the AI comes around I launch 100 Mines over the Planet and the entire AI fleet is Dead

Agreed, this is a great defense early in AIC because the AI will need more then 18 destroyers or a few carriers to blow thru one hundred mines.

It is unlikely 50 scouts or escorts even 30 or 40 Frigate can get thru a 100 minefield early in your AIC game.

Either way, any number of AI ships will sure tune up your minefield

Also to note: The AI has several standard minesweeper designs of its own and it know how to use them (at warp points) not as good over your planet...

However, once the AI fleets Fighter Carriers the chances are greatly increase the AI will penetrate a 100 Minefield

- - -

This is one more reason why I like AIC. The AI still gets backed up and takes losses the first 100 turns or so and then he gets better and better at Mines by turn 200 most AI Fleets are untouchable with mines.

Also the Human Players gets to play with mine fields basically just like se4 wanted it and the AI is not at a total loss. So when Playing Multplayer with an AI and one Human Player can not take advantage of the AI in AIC and the other 2 Human are fighting it out.

Remember the Higher the AI Bonus the faster it will reach CV techs

- - -

Actually in multiplayer I would rather be next to a Human Player then any of the AIC VIOLENT RACES.

Absolutely, I also would prefer starting adjacent to a Human Player then a Medium to High Bonused (Psycho or Berserker) AIC AI major Player.
Even if we have OS* and MP* starting trait Options in play for that game.



[ January 22, 2004, 23:54: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Grand Lord Vito]

Originally posted by JLS:
Thank you for the presented issues, the best way to handle Restrictions would be a one by one basis.

Ram Ship Cobalt Warheads are not restricted in AIC and you also have the ability that is restricted in se4 lifted so in AIC you may load them in total on Transports, for a neat Horatio Nelson fire ship.

Organic Armour is at 5 max, this was all discussed many months ago about restricting armor. Moreover, I am also partial to lifting the armor restriction as well. However, other players were adament about this issue as it applies to haveing restrictions on armor.

The AI is not overly effected even by its current designs by any changes with armor restrictions; so sure we have total freedom here.
However, this may yield advantages to other race types.
Many felt that the Organics have the armor avantage at 5, plus combine this with other PvK v4.11 armors. Then the advantage is followed by the Crysteline...

The removal of the Armor restrictions will only play into the Temporals and Cryseline favor; races with early armor skiping weapons and further distence Psychic and other race advantages

In jest "I have tons of armor on my ships and your investment is worthless to my weapons"
However their claims may be just nitpicking?

Remote Mining should be modest in nature.
However, what would you recommend for possible per turn ship/base gross robo-minning net numbers with a 100% planet value?

100 minefeilds are perfect

Minesweepers on transport are fine I see no reason to restrict this.

I am all for the removal of armor restrictions but then again I am a Temporal Race and this will be to my advantage. Plus the guys I play LAN games against, would like the edge they have with Organics. Besides with Component add numbers you are using se4 v1.84 update to its fullest.

You also may want to take a look at Cobalt Warheads, this may lead to exploits and restrict them somewhat.

Remote mining is good where it is IMO and AIC is designed for a more manageable ship count, raising the mining abilities will upset this and dig into LAN games.

[ January 23, 2004, 20:58: Message edited by: Grand Lord Vito ]

[PsychoTechFreak]

100 mines in a sector is the default with AIC as it is in se4, a larger setting is possible.
However the AI has a daunting task constructing and placing 100 mines per field, can you imagine the AI needing to double that effort [[Wink]]

Yes the Human Player can load Mine Sweeper Components in total on Medium Transports, do you recommend this be restricted?

No restrictions to the number of components, IMO. If you think a component is overpowered, just change it to a bigger size or more expensive.
Devnull has got 500 mines per sector; it is always a matter of balancing minesweeping ability and size of minefields. I do not use it often, it is just a kind of Last resort sometimes in the early game.

Remote mining is good where it is IMO and AIC is designed for a more manageable ship count, raising the mining abilities will upset this and dig into LAN games.

You don't play finite resources, do you?