OT: Bible Discussion (Split from Real World Sensitivities)

[capnq]

This thread is itself evidence for the resurrection of the dead. ;-)

Originally Posted by Imp

Even if you ignore all this there is one more problem, the saying "(absolute) power corrupts" seems to hold true. People with power seem to lose some morals.

From the science fiction novel "The Postman":

Originally Posted by David Brin

It's said that 'power corrupts', but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power. When they do act, they think of it as service, which has limits. The tyrant, though, seeks mastery, for which he is insatiable, implacable.

(BTW, the book regarded far better than Costner's movie; I haven't seen the movie, but the original novella was pretty good.)

With that in mind even if I am wrong & the bible did not get lost in translation by accident can you trust these guys interpritation on it.

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

[Imp]

One of the fundamental tenants of Protestantism (or at least Lutheranism, which is my own faith) is that the Holy Spirit assists the believer in interpreting the Scripture. One does not have to rely upon a professionally trained intermediary such as a priest to learn from it.

(That still doesn't guarantee that the believer will always interpret it correctly, though.)

Now this seems another stumbling block to me.
I can understand free will rather than have the message forced on us we are allowed to make a choice, its then our call & we get judged on our actions.
But if I have not understood it correctly how can I make a rational decision, also & nit picking does the holy spirit only help once you are a believer requiring a blind leap of faith or does he try & assist you to interprit it correctly & so become a believer?

An extreme example of misreading or more likely based on what you are told.
A badly educated & or uninteligent person is decieved by someone who is better educated/smarter into straping a bomb to himself in the name of religion.
Now am I wrong in thinking this is a true believer who is willing to sacrifice his life for his religion so is definetly a religous man.
His only error is being poorly educated/thick he is not a bad man that is the guy that recruited him.

As I said making sure the message is understood correctly is important.

[Imp]

On the farm wholy agree it is a buisness & no idea how he did but when he tried moving up to oil failed miserably despite status giving him breaks. Now you want him to take on something bigger.
Like I say not aiming at him specificly most people do not get in for the right reasons.
Understandable really you do not know what it takes to run a country so you are electing someone to do so based on .....
The one thing I can think of is good management skills & a proven track record

Chalk one on the myth, learning stuff if nothing else.

[lch]

Oh, this thread is still not yet dead? I remember that I started writing a response, then had to abandon it due to lack of time and just saved it in some text file. Let me see how much I need to edit what I wrote now - having read nothing of the latter posts yet.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

I never said that you have to change your belief system. I simply asked you to explain it.

I believe in the existance of the God of Israel, or "something" which men have identified as that, his sole existance and that the other religions "got it wrong somehow", I believe that the Bible is not just a fable but, concerning a couple of things, a historical document which aims to collect and preserve what has happened to record it. I believe that Jesus Christ existed, was a real person that lived about 2000 years ago, that he was chosen and exalted by God and did wonders like described in the bible and died for us and that the apotheosis/ascendance happened. I pray the Apostles' Creed and Lord's Prayer. I do not belief in the trinity, because it is something that is not in the Bible, but has been interpreted out of it some centuries later. I think I remember that this popped up during the last few days of the talks that we had before our confirmation, and if the presbyter would have insisted that I adopt this belief, then I would have refused to get confirmed. We settled somewhat for: he doesn't press the issue, and I get my confirmation. Though I have said myself that one shouldn't take the Bible by the word only, finding the right interpretation can go wrong.

I have no use for dogmas like "God is without sin". Man can't comprehend his motives and his existence, so the question if he can sin is useless. I consider myself pretty much nihilist, scepticist, and regarding things like these, agnostic.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

The canonical Gospels don't actually differ on any substantive issues. Each Gospel writer picked up a few events that the others missed, which is what you might expect from four different eyewitness accounts. Even so, the Gospels are all in agreement on the "big" things.

Yes, they do. And while I am no first- or second-hand witness myself, I make my interpretations based on my knowledge and ability of judgment based on what they wrote.

Originally Posted by SlipperyJim

I agree. Scriptural interpretation is very important. Of course, the next obvious question is how do you interpret Scripture? Theologians refer to this concept as Biblical hermeneutics.

Well, mostly I can give you "yes" or "no" answers, and the things that I say might even be conflicting. If there wouldn't be room for potential conflicts regarding these things, then everybody would necessarily have to adopt to Christianity. For some reason, that is not the case.

@KO: People have attributed me to the Islamic mindset not only in regards to my views on Jesus and the Bible, but on other views that I pronounced, as well. Well, that doesn't matter to me...

[Imp]

Skeptics have been raising this argument ever since believers started preaching the concept. I have my own answer to the problem that (sort of) satisfies me, but I'm not confident enough that I'm correct to try to convince others of it.

Not asking you to convince but if willing to post not forcing on anyone I asked.
Feel free to do as a PM rather than in the forum. I will just confirm reciept not comment on as feel I am coming across as judgemental which is not my aim.

This is a major sticking point for me though & if you look at the whole picture where you are born has a huge bearing on your chances.
Generalising but being born in the West say means you have a good chance of decent living conditions & are likely to adopt some faith involving Christ.
Being born in Asia possibly a worse standard of living & more likely to adopt another faith. So I would think its fair enough to say the odds have been stacked against you simply because of your place of birth.
If so for a God to be fair does he not have to judge you on your actions & the way you live your life with the fact that you believe him having little bearing on the outcome.
Does that make sense?

A discussion like this is far easier conducted face to face when you can keep pace with your thoughts.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

This is a major sticking point for me though & if you look at the whole picture where you are born has a huge bearing on your chances.
Generalising but being born in the West say means you have a good chance of decent living conditions & are likely to adopt some faith involving Christ.
Being born in Asia possibly a worse standard of living & more likely to adopt another faith. So I would think its fair enough to say the odds have been stacked against you simply because of your place of birth.
If so for a God to be fair does he not have to judge you on your actions & the way you live your life with the fact that you believe him having little bearing on the outcome.

"Standard of living" not only has less relevance than you think it does, it has the opposite effect.

Originally Posted by Matthew 19:23 (Revised Standard Version)

And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."

(If you'd like more context, I recommend reading Matthew 19:16-30.)

Affluence makes it more difficult to recognize your own need for any form of spirituality. I was raised as a Lutheran, and can't consciously remember a time when I didn't believe in Jesus, but the closest I've ever felt to God was during a two-week period when I was homeless. (I'd rather not discuss my circumstances at that time in any detail.)

I tried to dig up a better answer to your question, but disagreed myself with the conclusions people came to in the first couple search results I looked at. The first piece I found that I thought worth linking to was this PDF from the Free Church of Scotland.There's an article in it titled "Cross-cultural Evangelism", written by a Hindu who converted to Christianity:

Originally Posted by Ram Gidoomal

What about those who live and die without
ever hearing the gospel? What about - to take
one people group at random - the Western
Gaisu people in China? [...] They practice
ancestor worship, and no Gaisu or indeed no-
body in the immediate area has ever been
known to become a Christian. The area is al-
most untouched by Christian witness. So what
will become of those Gaisu who have died and
will die without hearing the gospel?

The answer is, we just don’t know.

As frustrating as it is, this is the most honest answer I've found to your question. The people who are absolutely sure they know the answer are the ones whose arguments I find the most painful to read.

[Imp]

So its an unsolved question.
As pointed out in the article I raised standard of living not because it effects faith but because they are "inherintly bad" so given a harder life (does not mean worse mind you) & less chance for salvation.
Its this lack of a solid founding on important issues that causes me problems. Lots of things look fine at first glance but if think them through fall down or indeed contradict themselves.
Thanks for taking the time but think I must accept that I have chosen my lot, as I said at the start great pieces of work & I think there must be something the universe or at least Earth is just to well organised to create life without some help.
To me that is the biggest argument that somebody/thing was involved in its creation, so surprisingly science & maths show the odds of it happening are so remote that its the best argument that someone designed it that way.

From the scientific viewpoint you could indeed take the view that God is all around us & in everyone of us. No matter how hard science looks it cannot understand the atom, the harder you look the more difficult it gets. It is the only known thing that acts both as a particle & a wave depending on if you are looking or not. Other things to so everything including you are made of something we cannot comprehend.

Actually they may have found a second thing recently not sure as have not kept up to date

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Imp

As pointed out in the article I raised standard of living not because it effects faith but because they are "inherintly bad" so given a harder life (does not mean worse mind you) & less chance for salvation.

I'm sorry, but I've read this sentence three times and I still can't figure out what point you're trying to make. What are you referring to as being "inherently bad"? (I can't tell what the pronoun "they" is replacing.)

"Standard of living" and "a harder life" do not correlate in any way with "chance of salvation". (IME, the first two don't even correlate with each other.)

[Skirmisher]

Bah Youtube had a nice Zappa video relating to this dicussion but the damn link doesn't work. Oh well.

[Imp]

Skirmisher whats the name of the song, the guys a bit of a nutter or was Quite smart though I think seem to remember he has a good buisnees head.
Could be a myth again but think read he was not getting the reaction he wanted in one video so made his guitarists equipment live. That got the jerking about response he wanted
Guessing they were not to happy about it.