The problem of low hit points on humans

[Forrest]

I repeat, a little common sense please.

No one has mentioned "Wish" to buff a commander.
"Power" : the caster gets +20 strength, +10 attack, +10 defence, +10 precision, and +50 hitpoints

Does that not qualify?

What you should do is ask the programers to change the effect so you can wish "Power (Commander's name)" and buff the leader you want without having to get him to astral 9.

I still feel you people are focusing on the wrong things. I like the fact that a human is not going to take a giant with out buffing just like I like being able to buff him till he can.

[Action]

Hullu said:
One thing popped to mind.

If it's 'unrealistic' or whatever that human heroes have more hp.

How is it not unrealistic if they get it from a heroic ability?

Why can't our HEROES have more than average hp, if our HEROES can?

Yah, this is the point I get stuck on too.

An Emerald Lord or something who gets unequaled obesity or the other HP boosting heroic ability and hangs around in the hall of fame for a while can gain a decent cushion of HP and will indeed survive hits that would kill a normal man.

If he can do it, why can't some of the national heroes do it? Why is it that the only way to get that HP up is via a random ability?

[PvK]

Graeme Dice said:
What items are you planning to give the Ulmish heroes so that they aren't killed by the first A2 mage they meet that casts lightning bolt twice?

Usually either Ring of Tamed Lightning, or Copper Plate.

Melee commanders have nowhere near as much effect on the battlefield as the equivalent gold cost in mages, and that's part of the problem.

True (though heroes generally cost zero, and I tend to use both). I do see this as an issue for my own tastes, and am continuing my mod which rebalances the magic costs.

The problem is that it's not good enough from a game mechanics standpoint. As a random guess, Emerald lords should probably have basic attack and defense stats of around 20 if you want to use them in a battle situation. This is necesary if you don't want them to die in the very first battle they ever see, especially with the extremely granular fatigue system that Dominions uses.

Whether it's "good enough" depends on what you want, and what tactics you use. If your Emerald Lords die in the first battle, then you are either exaggerating or using bad tactics, since my C'tissian commanders and utterly non-elite Ulmish commanders tend to survive battles quite often without any experience or magical help, and get into the HoF, etc.. See the tactics I mentioned below.

A basic van commander is about how powerful in combat without boosting spells or blesses as I would like to see most human commanders. Skilled enough to take on a dozen or so untrained or even well trained normal humans.

Sounds like a nice mod to me. Though, I assume you will tweak the costs so a commander costs what? 20 x what a normal soldier costs?

[PvK]

Graeme Dice said:

So, in other words, when he experiences 30 attacks in ten rounds of combat against size two opponents, he's not particularly likely to survive.

Edit:Size two opponents, not size three.

Yes, which only makes complete sense, if he is getting ganged up by a steady stream of enemies at 3:1 odds. That's why you don't send him out alone, but assign a few men to stay with him on Guard Commander, and place him near other blocks of troops, etc.

[PvK]

Action said:

Yah, this is the point I get stuck on too.

An Emerald Lord or something who gets unequaled obesity or the other HP boosting heroic ability and hangs around in the hall of fame for a while can gain a decent cushion of HP and will indeed survive hits that would kill a normal man.

If he can do it, why can't some of the national heroes do it? Why is it that the only way to get that HP up is via a random ability?

Other, non-random, ways are Prophetizing and Wish.
Heroic abilities are a bit exaggerated, especially when some of them get to high levels. People with high heroic abilities are more like the characters some people are wanting to see. I prefer to get legendary Defense skill to legendary ability to not die when butchered (i.e. Hit Points), personally. I agree that it's too bad it requires the attention of the gods who oversee the Hall of Fame to get them, and that they are a bit much in some cases. I'd like to see more minor abilities, and a different way to earn them besides the HoF.

[Ewierl]

Twan said:
(I would even say 25-30 hp + recup or regen, as hp here represent their extra capacity to avoid any kind of dammage

That is, I'm afraid, a fundamental misconception about how Dom3's system represents its world. If hp represented abstract damage avoidance ability, units wouldn't get afflictions based on damage dealt.

In Dominions, hp quite explicitly represent raw physical durability. Basically, meat and muscle! Even human "heroes" are still human, and will still die if they take an unlucky sword to the face. That realistic lethality is a core conception of how Dominions' mechanic works. If you find that particularly annoying, I'd recommend playing any of the numerous nonhuman races with higher-hp commanders. (Although you can replicate the general idea quite well with Summon Firbolg.)

Dominions isn't the kind of fantasy setting where the badass human singlehandedly slays the dragon. It's the kind of setting where an army of humans with greatswords and mage support kills the dragon.

As an aside, though, I do agree that it'd be nice to have HoF bonuses try to be appropriate to the commander type. Mages with boosted attack skill are pretty sad heroes!

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
Usually either Ring of Tamed Lightning, or Copper Plate.

They are ulmish heroes, so there's no ring of tamed lightning until you've bought a huge amount of master smiths. The copper plate just means that they'll die to a couple of smites, or a fireball instead.

True (though heroes generally cost zero, and I tend to use both).

Heroes cost you a good portion of the 120 design points you'd otherwise get if you took misfortune 3.

I do see this as an issue for my own tastes, and am continuing my mod which rebalances the magic costs.

As I expected, you sound like one of the players who are happy with the dumbing down of Dominions 3 compared to Dom2 and the general reduction in the power of magic.

Whether it's "good enough" depends on what you want, and what tactics you use.

I want the elite commanders with no added equipment to be able to survive nearly any battle that their side wins. These are supposed to be experienced frontline soldiers, not rank and file cannon fodder.

Sounds like a nice mod to me. Though, I assume you will tweak the costs so a commander costs what? 20 x what a normal soldier costs?

The commander would see no change in cost at all, since that's the bare minimum to make them anywhere as useful as a battle mage.

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
Yes, which only makes complete sense, if he is getting ganged up by a steady stream of enemies at 3:1 odds. That's why you don't send him out alone, but assign a few men to stay with him on Guard Commander, and place him near other blocks of troops, etc.

It's clear that you don't have much understanding of the battle mechanic from this statement. It doesn't matter if you give him bodyguards, or supporting troops, since melee attacks are effectively all concentrated on the most survivable unit in a square. In a single combat round, every single attack will be dealt to him (or to friendlies in the same square until they are dead) until he dies and they move onto the next target. 3:1 odds are almost exactly what a unit needs to be able to survive when supported by other troops because three units ganging up on a single other unit is the norm in dominions.

[Twan]

Ewierl : (longely explained in other messages of the thread, the question is how to boost heroes and I support an use of D&Dian hp for them it's why there is a "here" in the sentence and why I've also suggested to be logical and to give them a way to avoid afflictions as their extra hp wouldn't be "real hp" but hero points ; muscle can't give a sufficient number of "real" hp to make humans heroes worth to give them gear IMO).

[Turin]

For the people who can´t accept a bit higher hp for heros:

Consider this:
a run of the mill human unit has 10 hp.

The most skilled recruitable human fighters already have 15+hp(Emerald Lord,Warrior Chiefs, Boar Lord etc). So clearly skilled fighters can gain more than the ordinary amount of hps. Why does it break immersion then if Hero units, i. e. the best of the best have ~20 hp?
After all it would be only the logical progression from
standard soldier---->elite soldier---->Hero