Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Alneyan:


I would like a confirmation: is Dominions AI cheating? I would tend to believe it is not the case. If so, Dominions AI is really not that bad, and is one of the few AIs that does not rely on extra resources to provide a challenge. And I will be then in the side of "The AI isn't that bad, really".

The AI is not cheating on normal level. At higher levels it gets more design points and earns more money. Thats about it.

I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.


Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc.

What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress?

I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as:
Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5
Add a couple of other conditions.

Just to make you think. Eventually it might result in something good.

[-Storm-]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alneyan:


I would like a confirmation: is Dominions AI cheating? I would tend to believe it is not the case. If so, Dominions AI is really not that bad, and is one of the few AIs that does not rely on extra resources to provide a challenge. And I will be then in the side of "The AI isn't that bad, really".

The AI is not cheating on normal level. At higher levels it gets more design points and earns more money. Thats about it.

I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.


Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc.

What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress?

I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as:
Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5
Add a couple of other conditions.

Just to make you think. Eventually it might result in something good.

---

Finally an answer from a dev.
I would say, the AI should build castles in strategic locations, Example ->

code:

---

                AI1 Prov

 AI1 Prov.  AI1 Prov / Fortress   AI1 Prov.

                 AI1 Prov

---

Reworking the AI to recruit heavy troops/summon deadly creatures and use them properly in the armies is up to you, I have no idea that how to script you know.

[ November 02, 2003, 22:55: Message edited by: -Storm- ]

[Sammual]

Originally posted by Nerfix:
I'm not sure about this, but anyway:

9)The AI builds too much temples

The AI could be in perpetual broke, explaining the cheap units and lack of forts, because a temple costs 200 gold and there could be better uses for the money.

Not that AI shouldn't build temples, it just seems to build too much of them.

The AI temples have been giving me problems. I have been playing low domain pretenders and my sacred troops / Prophet are worth spit in the neg domain fights.

Sammual

[Chris Byler]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alneyan:


I would like a confirmation: is Dominions AI cheating? I would tend to believe it is not the case. If so, Dominions AI is really not that bad, and is one of the few AIs that does not rely on extra resources to provide a challenge. And I will be then in the side of "The AI isn't that bad, really".

The AI is not cheating on normal level. At higher levels it gets more design points and earns more money. Thats about it.

I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.


Regarding fort construction. I'm not sure how the AI works, but where would you build a fortress? Consider fort type, nation, geography, income, resources etc.

What is the most important matter? How should they be weighted? How much shall current wars affect the spending of time and money. What army should build the fortress?

I wouldn't mind a numerical evaluation of this such as:
Castle cost / 2 < Income + res + gem income x 25 + neighbors x 5
Add a couple of other conditions.

Just to make you think. Eventually it might result in something good.

---

Some responses to these questions:

1. In your list of factors you don't list population type and sites in the candidate province. I often fort to enable building more of an indep troop (especially amazon sacred cavalries, which are all useful; but also e.g. heavy cavalry for Caelum or C'tis, longbows/crossbows for any nation with weak missile troops) and/or protecting a location with high gem income or useful mages (either pop based (amazons again) or site based).

A good first rule is that if you can't spend all your gold buying useful units in forts you already have, you need a new one; if your units are frequently starving because of insufficient supplies far from your forts, you need a new one in that area. (Which reminds me - supply production can be a factor in fort location too.)

Rarely build a fort next to another fort (it is occasionally worth it for something that can be only found in that province, for example I will always fort a province that contains Mount Chaining in Dom I - in Dom II it isn't as powerful but is still pretty good if you are a blood using nation).

2. You don't need an army to build a fort. I usually don't use one. There is some risk in building a fort where you don't have an army, but I find it is often better to have the army doing something else - either taking more indeps (if they are available) or distracting the enemy so he doesn't have time to Call of the Winds every place I might be building a fort. Get some province defense though - it's annoying to have your fort sieged by Call of the Winds (and of course even more annoying to have the construction interrupted).

3. Fort selection value: (Adjustment * (resources + supplies)) + (gems x 10) + value of rare units recruitable here (this value should depend on the rarity and power of the unit; longbows and crossbows count a little, amazon cavalries and mages count more, something like grey knights would count a lot; mages with paths different from your nation are more valuable than mages that duplicate your nation's paths) + misc site value (enter-to-summons, cost reducers).

I don't generally take income into account directly (although the first two terms value high population provinces more). "Adjustment" depends on the admin and gold cost of the castle; higher admin and cost should raise the value of the adjustment. Adjustment = 0 if there is an adjacent fort (this will reduce fort-next-to-fort except when gem income, rare unit value, or site value are high, which are the exceptions to the no-adjacent-fort rule).

4. Once you have built a fort, build a temple. Temples are vulnerable to enemy attack, but in a fort they are far less vulnerable. Then they spread your dominion, let you recruit priests and preach better. Mictlan might be an exception to this rule because their temples don't radiate - but blood sacrifices are more effective when performed in temples (IIRC), so they might want to build temples anyway so that they can sacrifice there. It's better to preach or sacrifice inside a fort because it protects the priest (high level priests especially are pretty expensive).

Build a lab if you are likely to want to recruit any mages (if you are fortifying because of local troops or sites you probably want a lab for that anyway; some nations like Marignon always want to recruit mages) or summon/construct troops there to supplement your recruited troops (C'tis usually wants to do this; but Desert Tombs C'tis can do without the lab, if you don't mind shipping in your unpriests).

[Richard]

From what I have seen the beta testers have still been complaining about the AI. So this is not an issue of a late change that has crippled things, those testers STILL are getting their butts beat.

What I do see here is mostly veteran dom I players who know how to beat the game through practical experience from the first game. I also think some folks have judged it from limited playing time. Some people reported "THE AI IS THE WORST EVER!!!" within hours of the demo being released. Now tell me how you determine that from one game.

I am sure there are ways we can make the game better, but to say such things with such little to back it up is silly. If you have complaints, feel free to post them here, but it is much more productive to give specific examples and email files to Illwinter.

Now to the other stuff. Some people need to grow up on both sides. This is a game, not the WWF. Stop calling names or I will have to deal with that issue, and I don't want to have to do that.

If you want to get results, do this the right way. We have no problem working with people if they can PROVE there is an issue and work with the developer to fix it. Just posting constantly that you think the AI sucks and your are 3l33t won't get you anywhere.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Chris Byler:
Some responses to these questions:
[/QB]

Nice work. Especially the location chart and formula. Thats the type of suggestions needed.

Just to point out to people what does and doesnt work, I was thinking of something simple like having the AI take all provinces connected to its castle, then move in a straight line away from home for 4 provinces, build a new castle and take all the provinces around it, rinse and repeat. Part of the problem I had is that it required the AI to keep a count. Your formula might work better because it involves the AI looking at the fresh map each time to make its judgements.

Maybe mine can be used by the Easy AI?

[MStavros]

Nerfix - I've met with problem #5. in my Last game. I have NO idea that what the heck the AI was doin' with his pretender, but he moved it from border province - border province all the time, back and forth. Another odd thing...

[ November 02, 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: MStavros ]

[MStavros]

Originally posted by Richard:
From what I have seen the beta testers have still been complaining about the AI. So this is not an issue of a late change that has crippled things, those testers STILL are getting their butts beat.

The BETA testers are totally new or the AI in the full game will be lot better maybe?
Ive played many games with 1-6 impossible AIs, and I had no problem to kill at least 1 in the demo, easily. [40 turns limit]
Richard, check out this list by Aristoteles:

1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI wont build forts
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc.
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.


I think this is a very good list about the major AI problems. Just ignore the trollish Posts, and read the good ones only.

[Mortifer]

Originally posted by MStavros:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard:
From what I have seen the beta testers have still been complaining about the AI. So this is not an issue of a late change that has crippled things, those testers STILL are getting their butts beat.

The BETA testers are totally new or the AI in the full game will be lot better maybe?
Ive played many games with 1-6 impossible AIs, and I had no problem to kill at least 1 in the demo, easily. [40 turns limit]
Richard, check out this list by Aristoteles:

1. The AI is massing weak troops
2. The AI wont protect his pretender/commanders/priests/mages
3. The AI wont build forts
4. The AI's battlefield tactics could be better
5. The AI is making very odd things. IE. wandering around with his pretender alone etc.
6. The AI won't stay in a province, it is always moving his armies.
7. The AI won't make complex strategic maneuvers. IE. Making a focused attack against a province.
8. The AI won't equip his supercombatants..at least I've never seen that in the demo.


I think this is a very good list about the major AI problems. Just ignore the trollish Posts, and read the good ones only.

---

Yes, however I really don't see too many trollish Posts in these days. In fact we have very good suggestions in various threads. A fine example is this list about the AI weaknesses by Aristoteles. I am totally sure that he did played with the demo a lot, since he made these statements. I agree with all of them, and I've played hella lot with the demo.

Also there are very good polls, like the master list or my #2. poll. Needless to say, that polls are very important.

[Aristoteles]

Very good guys, just post your ideas and experiences about the AI.
This way the devs won't be pissed. Saying that the AI sucks won't help, we must tell them about the weak parts of it, like I did in my list.

[ November 03, 2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]