Forthcoming patch notes

[JimMorrison]

Loren said:

I think it should be based on a peak over a period of turns rather than an average but both are probably workable.

Whatever the exact mechanic, the basic idea is the battle continues so long as progress is being made. So long as there are no loopholes in the progress detection the battle *WILL* end at some point and that's really all we need.

Well all it has to do is check once every 10 turns or something, and compare overall HP figures. It needs to compare 3 samples in a row, to account for variations from damage and regen, but if over 3 samples the figures are too similar, attacker auto-routes at this point.

However, I would argue that in such a case, "mindless" units should not die. The point is that whoever or whatever is driving them, decides the battle cannot be won on current terms, and calls them back. I don't think a golem is fire-and-forget weaponry. In fact, the ONLY reason that they are made commanders, is so they can be geared out, it has not a thing to do with autonomy.

I think if a mechanic were worked out to require a mage on the field for Mindless commanders, it would resolve the whole problem. Hard to ***** if the controlling mage dies or runs from the field, though if a commander runs, even Mindless units should follow him - wouldn't he call them back with him? Or would he sacrifice them for his own life? Oh the dilemma!

[TheMenacer]

I didn't say I hated hero's and anti heroes, or characters.

I hate SC's. To be specific, Dominions(x) implimentation of battlefield heros.

Why? Hmm.. because there doesn't seem to be anything *heroic* about them. The game doesn't set up as a MMRPG; its more spreadsheet and battle tactics. Were it otherwise, I would strongly enjoy them. We argue whether frost brands are more effective than fire brands due to the 2 extra pts of damage....

Why? Because we have 8-10 army units - each supposedly crafted to reflect their nations strengths and tastes. And yet uniformly all but 1-2 of them are pointless in just a few turns.

Why? Games, like theatre, involve a suspension of believe.
We play in a certain fantasy world - with a certain map.
As part of those rules - we are told that these nations exist, and their militaries are primarily composed of these units.

You can imagine a history of military combats - of battles won and lost. Only you can't. Because those army units would never exist. Nations would have evolved SC's - not army units.

The logical disconnect - the loss of 'suspension of disbelief' is irritating. Its like interrupting the writing of Xanadu, or more prosaicly, someone interrupting your favorite TV show. Every time I play.

Now THAT would be an interesting Mod.
A Mod where there were no army units - only starting SC's, and starting equipment you could make. Starting spells.

I always assumed that the empires that we were playing were literally composed only of their capital province (plus however many you set in the game settings). It sort of makes sense, they've got so much more population than their neighboring kingdoms that you could reasonably say that they're a world power. Indy provinces all have their own unique cultures and army lists, but we don't get to see them because they're all too insignificant in terms of the movers and shakers in the world. Plus they didn't have a pretender god come a'knocking and telling them to become aggressively imperialistic, seizing independent kingdoms and claiming their money and, more importantly in the creation of SCs, the magical resources lying inside of their territory.

[chrispedersen]

Regardless,

Dominions is supposedly a 'deep' game with hundreds of options. But I really believe it has hundreds of options - but only 2-3 of them are even remotely competitive in an MP environment.

I mean, when was the last time someone won a game soley through Dominion? Soley by his virtuoso economic performance?
Instead it comes down to Diplomacy, SC's and spell research, maybe toss in bless strategies.

I've no beef about the diplomacy. But even spell research really comes down to a few dominant themes: Tartarians. Wishes. Master Enslaves.

[Jazzepi]

chrispedersen said:
Regardless,

Dominions is supposedly a 'deep' game with hundreds of options. But I really believe it has hundreds of options - but only 2-3 of them are even remotely competitive in an MP environment.

I mean, when was the last time someone won a game soley through Dominion? Soley by his virtuoso economic performance?
Instead it comes down to Diplomacy, SC's and spell research, maybe toss in bless strategies.

I've no beef about the diplomacy. But even spell research really comes down to a few dominant themes: Tartarians. Wishes. Master Enslaves.

I don't feel like digging it up, but someone beat 4-5 other opponents in 2 turns on a large map by super dominion pushing with Mictlan.

Jazzepi

[Gandalf Parker]

There does seem to be some groups that play continually together on pretty much the same maps. Their results do tend toward certain standard endings. They seem to have fun with it though.

[Micah]

2 turns Jazzepi? That seems a bit much to swallow... even with temples in every province, H2 priests with jade daggers at each temple and 10 dominion that's still only 8 candles worth of dom spread per province he had...a whole heck of a lot, to be sure, but hardly enough to snuff out the entire rest of the map unless he controlled over half of the board. (And if he did have that much territory the specifics of the victory don't much matter, since he had the game won regardless.)

[Chris_Byler]

NTJedi said:
SC's have existed throughout fantasy history... everything from the ancient story of Beowulf to Superman to even Lords of the Ring !! If the SCs are removed from these stories, there's not much remaining. If you prefer games without SC's you'd have to lean towards games which are purely military historical with not even a tiny spice of fantasy... yet these games still have thug types.

None of those are anything remotely like the Dominions "take on 500 men by yourself" SC. Well, maybe Superman *could* kill 500 men by himself, but he probably wouldn't. And if the 500 men were armed with kryptonite, then he probably couldn't kill them by himself - he just has a better version of ethereal making him immune to the wrong kind of weapons.

Beowulf heroically defeated two opponents - one at a time. Dangerous monsters, yes, but there weren't hundreds of them. Given the amount of difficulty he had with one sea troll at a time, it's hard to believe he could have faced a single casting of Sea King's Court (let alone the kind of armies Dom SCs regularly solo).

Lord of the Rings - armies are defeated by other armies. Do you think the battle of Helm's Deep was won by *just* Legolas and Gimli, with no other friendly units? That would be like Dominions SCs - except that's not what happened in Tolkien, because it would be totally unbelievable. Heck, even Sauron is defeated by an army and has the Ring cut off his finger by Isildur (although this is ancient history and doesn't take place during the books).

If Leonidas had been a Dominions SC, he would have outright WON at Thermopylae. Personally killed half the Persian army and routed the other half and then gone home for dinner. That's not what happened.

Nearly every legend of a hero ends with that hero's downfall, often death. Sometimes from something as simple as a poisoned arrow. Generally, humanoid units in Dominions are quite faithful to this tradition of mortality. Some of the monstrous units just don't have a significant enough weakness, or it can be covered too easily by items.

[JimMorrison]

Well to be fair, all of these heroes whom you describe, are more like specialized thugs, than true SCs. None of them could "take the damage" as well as dish it (except perhaps Sauron, but that was so obviously a lucky critical strike ). For example, Legolas may be analogous to Lugh the Long-Handed perhaps, and well geared Lugh can really wreak some havoc - but put him solo against 500 men and he'll be someone's ***** right quick.

If Leonidas had been a Dominions SC, he'd be 20 feet tall and have Boots of the Behemoth - then maybe he'd have won Thermopylae, but as it was, he was just a very capable leader, and a good soldier. As far as we know. But, I think we can safely rule out the 20 feet tall part, and the F9/E9 bless. >.>

[Taqwus]

Achilles is much closer to a Dominions SC than any of the Spartans; he has Olympian ancestry (not too unusual in the Trojan Cycle), is favored by certain Olympians (also not too unusual), has such a reputation that he would likely have both Fear and Standard effects at a high level, and at one point receives equipment forged by Hephaesteus himself.

And when he does commit, no Trojan stands against him other than Hector (who also has l33t skills and Olympian assistance for most of the Iliad), and even Hector is rather pessimistic about his own odds.

Later in the cycle, Odysseus and Telemachus completely slaughter a small army of suitors, again with Olympian intervention on their side.

[Jazzepi]

Micah said:
2 turns Jazzepi? That seems a bit much to swallow... even with temples in every province, H2 priests with jade daggers at each temple and 10 dominion that's still only 8 candles worth of dom spread per province he had...a whole heck of a lot, to be sure, but hardly enough to snuff out the entire rest of the map unless he controlled over half of the board. (And if he did have that much territory the specifics of the victory don't much matter, since he had the game won regardless.)

Like I said, I'm not going to dig the game up, it's out there though if you feel like combing through the archives. It was in two turns though, and the opponents described having their provinces go from black to white in a single turn.

And the Mictlan priests he used were H3.

Jazzepi