The next patch

[PhilD]

Originally posted by Jasper:
You're right, geometric is definitely the right word, not exponential.

I honestly fail to see the difference between "geometric" and "exponential" in this context. They're exactly the same: a constant amount of additional resources (time, or gems, or whatever) brings a constant multiplier to the total value.

Here, the growth is exponential (or geometric) with respect to time, because each 20 clams (or 14, if you have the Dwarven Hammers) generate enough gems each turn to make one more clam: your clam number, just from the clam output, will double every 15-16 turns.

I just computed progression lists, both assuming no normal gem input:

If you start on turn 0 with 20 clams, no gems, and convert each 20 pearls into one clam, you can start turn 16 with 40 clams and 39 pearls; you will need a second forger for the first time on turn 8.

If you start turn 0 with 14 clams, no gems, and a hammer, you will start turn 12 with 28 clams and 34 pearls, assuming you have the second hammer by turn 7. By turn 16, you will have 36 clams and 46 pearls, now needing a third hammer and forger.

Of course, the need for gold (upkeep and cost of recruiting the forgers and clam-bearers) will increase at the same speed. You can alchemize your pearls to pay for it, but it will significantly slow down your doubling rate.

I don't know how efficient this really is; I've never tried very hard to make it work.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Zapmeister:

quote:

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What - "5 bucks to kill hoarders line?

Not much, but enough to show that they think that this is a non-issue.

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No, it is not a non-issue.

As shown in this thread there is no consensus on the clam matter. Some people have a problem, some don't.

I havn't decided my own opinion yet.

My brother came up with the idea that clam hoarding is mostly a blitz problem. In quick paced games it is easier to get left alone and it is easier to get away with less than optimal use of resources.

In PBEM games you ponder your turn for hours, when at work and when sleeping. In this kind of game clam hoarders are probably less likely to succeed.


We didn't intend to make the game a build-up-wish-win-game. We didn't imagine MP games would Last until wish was researched (slight exaggeration, but not far from the truth). High level spells are mostly there for the SP community and to hasten the end of long Lasting MP games.

Research cost can and should be altered in large games.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jasper:
I used to do that a bit as well, but found I got better battle results out of Fire, Earth, Air, or Astral. Mostly because Water's main benefit to a combat pretender is quickness, which can be easily received from Quickness Boots.

Many pretenders haven't the required appendages to put boots on.

For battle magic, my own Favorites paths are Water, Earth, Death. With Air and Nature as outsiders.

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True. I guess I'm biased as I generally choose those that can use boots (although that's most pretenders). Being able to get most of the benefit from a path of magic for a single item slot is pretty nice.

What do you like about Death on a Combat Pretender? The fear effect, or some spell combination? I've always thought of death mainly as support magic, with only Soul Vortex ever standing out for close combat use.

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
My brother came up with the idea that clam hoarding is mostly a blitz problem. In quick paced games it is easier to get left alone and it is easier to get away with less than optimal use of resources.

In PBEM games you ponder your turn for hours, when at work and when sleeping. In this kind of game clam hoarders are probably less likely to succeed.

Interesting point. I typically don't play blitz games, excepting the first 10 turns or so. Even then I prefer slow enough play to allow diplomacy.

Do those who think Clams are broken play mostly blitz games?

[Jasper]

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
We didn't intend to make the game a build-up-wish-win-game. We didn't imagine MP games would Last until wish was researched (slight exaggeration, but not far from the truth). High level spells are mostly there for the SP community and to hasten the end of long Lasting MP games.

Most of the Dom 1 games I played saw level 9 spells in action roughly turn 40-50, IIRC. I haven't played enough with Dom 2's reduced income to have a good feel for it's research pace, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 5-10 turns behind.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Jasper:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
My brother came up with the idea that clam hoarding is mostly a blitz problem. In quick paced games it is easier to get left alone and it is easier to get away with less than optimal use of resources.

In PBEM games you ponder your turn for hours, when at work and when sleeping. In this kind of game clam hoarders are probably less likely to succeed.

Interesting point. I typically don't play blitz games, excepting the first 10 turns or so. Even then I prefer slow enough play to allow diplomacy.

Do those who think Clams are broken play mostly blitz games?

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Johan had a discussion on the matter with the 'blitz-finns' on IRC. They were the first ones to bring the matter to our attention. I have only heard blitzers complain, but that might be a misconception. I very rarely play blitzes.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally posted by Jasper:
Most of the Dom 1 games I played saw level 9 spells in action roughly turn 40-50, IIRC. I haven't played enough with Dom 2's reduced income to have a good feel for it's research pace, but I'd be surprised if it was more than 5-10 turns behind.

Yes. It was an exaggeration. But at turn 50 the game might well be decided, at least for a handful of nations.

All recent MP games I have been in have had victory conditions set. Either by VP or dominion. They didn't Last very long (20-60 turns).

I think VP's is a good workaround on the clam hoarding. Let him hoard while I grab these VP sites. Battles for VP's will change the goals of the players and the way the game is played.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Jasper:
What do you like about Death on a Combat Pretender? The fear effect, or some spell combination? I've always thought of death mainly as support magic, with only Soul Vortex ever standing out for close combat use.

Good guess. I take Death for Soul Vortex, the fear aura is mainly a bonus. One of the biggest threats (if not the biggest) that even the toughest supercombattants have to deal with is fatigue, and Quickness only makes this concern worse. But with Soul Vortex on, this is no more an issue (well, as long as you face "leechable" enemies). This makes Water+Death (or more accurately, Quickness+Death) a fearsome combo IMO.

And, BTW, a bit of death magic makes your pretender more resistant to Decay. Although pretenders easily resist it, this spell is so cheap and easy to cast it shouldn't be underestimated if you send your god in hand-to-hand combat every other month. Same concern later in the game with Disintegrate. Last night I tested a Wyrm with Water 2 (Quickness, BoW), Earth 3 (prot 30, Iron Will) and Death 4 (Soul Vortex, resist death spells +2) and I can only say: it rocks. I'll have to try something similar on a Manticore soon.

[Jasper]

I can see how the synergy would be nice, although that seems like a really expensive Wyrm. I have this image of your Wyrm with 2 Starshine Skullcaps , plus an anti-magic ring and a lightning ring on it's tail...

Alot rides on how much the tactical AI likes to cast Soul Vortex after scripted orders run out -- I take it from your sucess that it casts it frequently?

I would still fear getting trumped by someone else's combat pretender, as by the time you can put Soul Vortex into action you're potentially facing combatants who will destroy such a Wyrm, e.g. the classic Arcoscephale Nataraja. Still, imagine this would work with a Prince of Death as well.

The bit about extra resistance against Decay is new to me. Do all the paths work that way, or it just Death?

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Originally posted by Jasper:
I can see how the synergy would be nice, although that seems like a really expensive Wyrm. I have this image of your Wyrm with 2 Starshine Skullcaps , plus an anti-magic ring and a lightning ring on it's tail...

I tested with Midgard, so the 2nd cap was actually a Spirit Helm. And although expensive it's quite affordable. And more importantly, it was good fun to play with. Especially with a nation like Midgard. It wouldn't suit Ulm so well.

Alot rides on how much the tactical AI likes to cast Soul Vortex after scripted orders run out -- I take it from your sucess that it casts it frequently?

I prefer to leave no room for randomness when scripting SCs -> buff x 5, attack.

I would still fear getting trumped by someone else's combat pretender, as by the time you can put Soul Vortex into action you're potentially facing combatants who will destroy such a Wyrm, e.g. the classic Arcoscephale Nataraja.

I'm aware of this. I controlled 2 other nations in this test, and I can confirm a well decked-out Nataraja usually wins 1-on-1. Yet the Wyrm was very impressive in most scenarios and did some truly awesome job.

The bit about extra resistance against Decay is new to me. Do all the paths work that way, or it just Death?

Not only death - Astral magic protects vs Soul Slay, Nature magic protects vs Charm, etc. You get +1 bonus for every 2 levels in the relevant path.