Oblivion

[PvK]

OG_Gleep said:

I like the system personally. I also don't think that its nessisarily wrong for developers to charge for additional content. I do think it was a poor choice to have the first one be a glorified skin.

I was talking about all the fantasy games with broken game balance and the ruts they get stuck in warping the reality of their gameworlds to try to provide balanced play instead of fixing the balance problems.

As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

[Vicious Love]

PvK said:
As for paying for extra bits of content, I agree it _could_ be appropriate, but it looks like it is already being abused to nickle & dime people for silly things.

PvK

Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation. Exploitation of overeager spendthrifts with a vestigial sense of finance, at best, but exploitation nonetheless. The fact that this content was complete long before the game was finished only makes Bethesda look that much worse.
I mean, think of how much either of Morrowind's expansions would have cost were they released in absurdly overpriced little packages like this.

Sure, the whole thing looks profitable on paper, and it's not like there's any breach of contract at play. Were there a contract between consumer and games publisher, I doubt it would include a "goodwill clause" which forces publishers to support the fanbase, release patches regularly, and charge reasonable prices(0.00 rupees, for instance) for their minimods. By that same token, there's nothing preventing performance artists from "entertaining" their audience with an hour-long show that consists of nothing more than a framed Polaroid of Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.
Both practices are legitimate, and initially profitable, but both are miserly and petty enough to annoy the fanbase, and discourage them from purchasing any more of the publisher's/artists' products/services. Because they're sickeningly cheap tricks to pull.

[Vicious Love]

OG_Gleep said:
Had you not done the Arena, the fighters guild may have been unroleplayingy, but since you have...
...
The Thieves guild also fits with your skill set and gameplay choices, as Assasins and thieves share similar talents.

Aren't there assassins who refuse to stoop to petty theft? Aren't there near-suicidal glory hounds who insist on fighting in the arena with nothing but mage skills, out of some sorta twisted, quintessentially elven inferiority issues?
I like to believe there's more to roleplaying than deciding whether you're a fighter, mage, thief or cleric.

Then again, I've never been able to "roleplay"(get remotely immersed, that is) with Morrowind.
I "buy" the premise of a game like Master of Orion because I get the distinct impression of other civilizations, with their own agenda, doing their own thang for their own reasons. Morrowind felt like nothing quite so much as a bunch of mannequins standing around, waiting for me to push their buttons*.
My point being, you could see the strings**, and that doesn't make for a very compelling world, in terms of immersion.

Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell? Hard to roleplay a thief when you have to force yourself to overlook these obvious treasure troves. But that brings us back to that whole metagaming grievance SC and I brought up earlier, and there's no real point to retreading that ground.

* Not that ordinary mannequins have buttons, but that's what makes Morrowind NPCs special.

** Not that mannequins have strings, either.

[Morkilus]

(intentionally butchering your quote)

Vicious Love said:Phillip Glass duct-taped to an American Federal-era armoire under a blacklight.

Now THIS I would pay to see.

By the way, is this game the reason I can't get any more MP games in Dominions anymore? Or maybe I just need to bite the bullet and start a PBEM myself

[Vicious Love]

Graeme Dice said:

Why do people care about innovation?

[/quote]

I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?
Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?
Or maybe we just like the idea of game development not grinding to a screeching halt in the present day, because our games are perfectly all right as they currently are, and there's really nothing new to invent? If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

Innovation does not make a good game.

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ. Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

It's an upgraded version of Morrowind, with many of the problems fixed, and one of the best melee combat models since Die by the Sword.

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

If no combat from horseback is a dealbreaker, then I question whether you are the correct type of person to enjoy any game of this type in the first place.

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

Well, since they _don't_ just do that, I'd wonder whether you've even played Oblivion. Of course, since you haven't purchased it by your admission below, I'd certainly hope that you haven't played it yet.

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.

Remember people, it's unethical for companies to charge for their products.

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

[Graeme Dice]

Vicious Love said:
I dunno. Possibly because each and every preview of the game promised us volumes upon volumes of innovation?

Really? Can you provide a half-dozen or so previews that claim that the game will be innovative?

Or possibly because many of us were fundamentally dissatisfied with many core aspects of Morrowind, and no innovation means no changing these core aspects?

What core asects would you expect to change? It's still an Elder Scrolls game, so it's not like any reasonable person would expect radically different gameplay.

If games like Oblivion don't take the vanguard, what will?

I'd rather have a fun game than an innovative game.

Every worthwhile computer game since Pong begs to differ.

If you only consider innovative games to be worthwhile, then you must not enjoy very many computer games.

Innovation may not be sufficient, but without it you're just regurgitating the same old stuff with better graphics and a steeper price tag.

Well, since there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating games that are similar to old games but that have better graphics, I fail to see your complaint. Your complaint about price is also pure nonsense, since Morrowind and Oblivion both cost exactly the same numerical price: $59.99 CDN. Of course, that $59.99 CDN in 2006 for Oblivion is actually cheaper than the $59.99 CDN in 2002 for Morrowind. Game prices have dropped tremendously over the past 20 years.

Erm... no. It's not really much better than Fable's, either. And it can't begin to compare to Mount & Blade's system.

Mount and Blade has a gimmicky, easily exploited combat system that lets a character right out of the gate fight off a dozen attackers just by backpedaling and letting them form a single file line. Further, your demand that the combat be perfect is quite ridiculous. It doesn't need to be perfect, it merely needs to be good.

This is a cutting-art, state-of-the-edge game that uses a revolutionary third-party tree rendering program and an even more revolutionary "NPCs walk from point A to point B" system, and yet it can't afford to throw in a feature that was available in Daggerfall? I realize it would be a mite trickier to make it work, what with no longer using sprite-based graphics and all, but come on. Speaking of the Point A to Point B engine...

So let me ask you a simple question. What kind of actual gameplay value does combat from horseback add to a game?

'fraid I have. It was decent, but you could still see the strings.

You stated that you weren't going to support Bethesda with your money. That is a clear admission tha you haven't purchased the game. Further, if the game was "decent", by your own admission, then how can you possible have so much vitriol for it?

See above. Honestly, this is just a cheap shot on behalf of BethSoft's marketing department.

No, it's called an observation of the mindset of your typical person who feels that they are entitled to luxury goods at whatever price they want, rather than the price the seller decides to provide it at. Bethesda is perfectly within their rights to sell mods at whatever price they want to, since they have in no way shape, or form cheated you with your purchase. (Well, not your purchase, since you admitted that you won't be paying for the game even though you already played it.)

I'd like to know how you know anything about the AI behaviour of the NPCs when you haven't even purchased the game.

Go ahead, take a guess.

[/quote]

Okay, you are making observations about the AI behaviour because you pirated the game. It's nice to see that you're now trying to cover up your admission that you either haven't purchased, or haven't played Oblivion. Please don't bother, since I have no real reason to want to deal with liars.

[Graeme Dice]

Vicious Love said:
Also, ever notice how you can just casually loot a bunch of places in the game(the Balmora and Caldera mages' guilds spring to mind) for more gold than you can earn in a year or two of game time? Without using a single thief skill or spell?

If you can't earn more than the 10K or so gold you'd get from picking up the trash items in those guilds within a year of game time, then you aren't a particularly competent player.

[Graeme Dice]

Vicious Love said:
Precisely. There's absolutely nothing wrong with charging for additional content, but this thing costs about 5% of the full price of the game. A few meshes and skins are not 5% of a game. I realize Bethesda aren't forcing this purchase on anyone, and buying a bland little micromod for more than it's worth is entirely the buyer's fault, but it still smacks of exploitation.

My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me. It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate, or else I might never have realized it.

[Vicious Love]

Graeme Dice said:
My, aren't you the disgruntled little communist! I wasn't aware that it was only moral to price content based on what fraction of the game that content represents. How foolish of me.

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Communist?

I mean, I was expecting an irrational flame or two, but this is just... wow. I have no idea how to address that. Couple that with...

It's a good thing I learned this from a self-admitted software pirate,

...bearing in mind that I'd made no such admission, and it becomes clear that there's no point to continuing this flame war.

[Cainehill]

For a change I'm not interested in getting into a flame fest but - someone may be a software pirate, Graeme. Someone might also have been a beta tester, which is _another_ way they could be playing the game without purchase.