The (not really) Official Endgame Summon Thread!

[Wrana]

About fungi creatures I would add to some of them a 'Moss Body' as #onebattlespell. Though immortality would probably be too much - or at least should be restricted to just one of their kinds (I personally would prefer to make them regenerating). Another probability is Dominion summon, of course.

[Wrana]

By the way, mykorhyza (i.e., real body of fungi) is actually quite vulnerable and regrows only slowly. That's why when you gather eatible fungi you should cut them near surface, not pull them off. Just for those who didn't know previously...
(So ingame something similar should probably look as something low-hp, high MR & mindless which just domsummons chaff (or not only chaff)).

[HoneyBadger]

One of the characteristics of my own campaign setting-which is decidedly weird-is that their are roughly 15000 separate, unique fungus/crystal (traits of both) constructs that each represent a separate letter (rune, if you will) of the "magical alphabet", and that these reproduce (the reproductions are not immortal/indestructable, although the original "parent" is) over time, causing fluctuations in the presence, influence, character, and usability of the magic. These are then tended over by the setting's equivalent to faeries.

So what I'm going with this is, maybe instead of (yet another) SC, perhaps instead your fungi might produce units over time that autocast each a different specific spell. It would add something different to the nation from any other, it's weird enough thematically for a fungus nation [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon04.gif[/img] and if you set it up right, would make the nation powerful enough to compete with any of the others, due to their masses of free casters. Balance could be achieved by, firstly, making the more important "links" in the "chain" of producers very vulnerable to destruction, and by making the "chain" long enough that the really good spells-as well as any SCs and units that are very useful for other things than casting spells, don't show up until much later in the game.

[Wrana]

Yes, I agree about this, though 15000 letters "alphabet" seems too much - Chinese has fewer! It would, of course, explain magic being rare... By the way, could I look it up somewhere?
Important links vulnerable to destruction seems quite right for me, but what I'm not sure about is a possibility of making a random/semirandom NEW units production under the existing engine. IIRC mod commands allow either 'summon allies' which produces 1 type of such, or domsummon which can produce a few types with probability depending on Dominion.. This can probably include various types, but not with equal probability of each, so a variety of high-end types isn't achievable. They would also become rather common in high Dominion - and if they are free, then their production becomes completely automatic after the start, without any meaningful choice on a part of player...

[JimMorrison]

What you would have to do, is make certain powerful versions possible only under very high Dominion, 9-10 maybe.

When these appear, and there are several types, they can Call Allies, each with different resulting units produced. The "choice" to the player comes in the form of deciding which to send off to war today to defend and expand the nation, and which to keep at home, generating more troops.

Not a perfect fix by any means, but it allows you to tailor your army a little more the way you want it. Of course, any system that uses Call Allies is going to necessarily be somewhat less responsive than a training/purchase system. You're getting what you get every turn, and that's it. Though, you'd get the other freespawns as well.

The chance to get the good ones could only take place in castles, and probably castles with temples. So in the early game, it wouldn't be this overwhelming advantage, it would take some effort to get to a situation where you were really producing powerful troops on a meaningful scale.

[HoneyBadger]

Actually, quite a bit more than 15000-which isn't *that* much, when you consider they govern most of the aspects of Reality itself, in a localized fashion. It's not so much a language as the symbols for the source-code of the Universe.

And no, it's just a prop, nothing really to even look at.

I'd force the player to make meaningful choices in two ways: 1 by selection of Pretender-type. A different Pretender produces different generations down the line. If A: the Pretender can shapechange, then each change would produce a different line, while possibly-or not-allowing the Pretender to go back to original form. If B: no shapechange, or C: if shapechange in conjunction with entirely separate Pretenders, then a very important, informed or uninformed, decision can be made from the start of the game.

Secondly, by making some very expensive National summons, that each produce their own generations, you force the player to spend large amounts of resources to set up their game strategies-taking into account that what they spend now, they'll only see a return on, later in the game. That way, you open up various units to everyone playing the Nation, but force a choice of long term strategy.

Thirdly, as JimMorrison says-if you set it up in such a way that you're forced to choose between sending your producers off to fight, or leaving them at home to breed, that's another good choice, as is choosing between A: producing more weak units which themselves produce stronger units, or B: *just* producing strong units now-that are either sterile, or that produce weak units, which later on will give you diminished returns.

[Wrana]

Well, as I've said, 'summon allies' doesn't allow for choices, and domsummon have only probabilities... Making 'factory units' normal summons - even with some of them from school(s) other than conjuration does, of course, allow for more choices... By the way, choice through shapechanging, while not entirely thematic, is a good possibility.

[Aezeal]

I think my idea for a brigdeburner summmon (or something similar) ie a squad with several individual not overpowered or SC like units but which together make a decent summon would be a good solution --> like Bogus and his team really.. but maybe with a little more troops

I'm thinking you could also include a leader which generate the "chaff" (relatively speaking) so attrition isn't THAT much of a problem

Say

1 leader
2 mages
3 other characters with nice abilities, bows what not
and 15 strong infantry units and 15 good archers

And the leader creating one infantry/ turn and the mage one archer/turn

Maybe give one of the remaining 3 characters a nice bow and target leaders option?

Or a few mages (probably needed to make them viable unless you give the archers banefire bows (and why not )

and give the mages acces to spells or onebattle spells or regular spells modded to be easier to cast

[JimMorrison]

Wrana said:
Well, as I've said, 'summon allies' doesn't allow for choices, and domsummon have only probabilities... Making 'factory units' normal summons - even with some of them from school(s) other than conjuration does, of course, allow for more choices... By the way, choice through shapechanging, while not entirely thematic, is a good possibility.

Well my theory was that the nation could be balanced with the need for those factories to play a vital role in combat. Perhaps they are your only reliable leaders, or some such. The point being that in general terms, for every 3 of these that spawned, you would want 2 of them in combat. So by putting in varied types, you supply a player with choices as to which he keeps behind to bring in more troops, and which he sends forward to engage in the active fighting (if there is any).

To be more specific, the nation would ultimately rely in large part on Dom Summons. The bulk of those freespawns would of course be small chaff. However, at castles with temples, in high Dominion territories, there would be a chance for powerful caster/leader units to spawn. These units would all have a Call Allies command, and there would be perhaps 10 different ones, each who had a corresponding elite unit tied to them. Not long into the game, you would find combat would be unmanageable without the use of these leaders (at lower level, you would still get freespawn leaders, with 40 Leader, and no special abilities) to bring larger forces to bear, and to support with their magic. So you would have to make a choice, between more elite unit creation, or a more robust army on the front lines. Once you had made the choice of how many of your casters to commit to leading armies, then you would choose between the different units that those leaders could create, were they standing still. I'm not talking about just 1 that does infantry, and 1 that does missile troops, but imagine for example that there is a more typical type of missile troop available, using bows or xbows, but they might also have some little amphibian guys that throw Slime. The balance of those capabilities, or your choice of which to use - is yours.

[HoneyBadger]

Another nice idea to be stolen from Insectoids is the unit that shapechanges permanently from a mobile unit to an immobile unit. This reminds me a bit of slime molds and the way they ambulate. It would be interesting for a fungus nation to have relatively weak but fast units (Zerg, anyone?) that could attack a province en masse, take it over-suffering heavy losses-but then compensate for those great losses by the few survivors permanently transforming into heavy immobile PD supporters (growing into the ground like creep colonies-Zerg again).