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  #131  
Old June 15th, 2003, 04:12 AM

Stone Mill Stone Mill is offline
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

Great Posts on both sides, which both deserve mention... I will do my best to try and summarize some of the points made and expand the monolith section.

Oh sure, there may be some butchery as always. But I'll try to get it right.

Mark- on remote mining, it is something I tried at first and never really found a handle on how to do it efficiently. After reading your Posts and those of others, I see how it can make sense. I may try it out again, and re-draw my initial impression of remote mining...

[ June 15, 2003, 03:17: Message edited by: Stone Mill ]
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  #132  
Old June 15th, 2003, 12:13 PM

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Quote:
Originally posted by Stone Mill:

Mark- on remote mining, it is something I tried at first and never really found a handle on how to do it efficiently. After reading your Posts and those of others, I see how it can make sense. I may try it out again, and re-draw my initial impression of remote mining...
I think the thing about remote mining ships that puts people off is the fact that they run out of supply so quickly, and they wonder what they're going to do about the management hassle of dealing with all these stranded spaceships.

Emergency Resupply solves this problem of course, but that's not really "early game" tech.

Actually, my solution has been to ignore the problem. They may be out of fuel, but they go on happily mining. And if eventually you want to replace them, just move them off their asteroids, send in a warship, and blow them up! It's not a completely optimum use of resources, but they paid for their investment cost a long time ago.
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  #133  
Old June 15th, 2003, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

Supplies have nothing to do with it. Remote Mining is an inneficient waste of resources in the long run (esp. in larger games). Just a few resource facilities on a planet built form the asteroids produce more than your ships will.
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  #134  
Old June 18th, 2003, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

I think remote mining can be very usefull given the right circumstances. ie: You've pretty much colonized all the planets, the game is not likely to Last long enough to use planet making tech. Given this, why would you not remote mine that asteroid that has 300% minerals?
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  #135  
Old June 19th, 2003, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

i do not like to use remote mining because of 2 things:

1. the ai doesn't use it so i consider it to be an unfair advantage.

2. it's too much micromanagement.

[ June 18, 2003, 23:55: Message edited by: minipol ]
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  #136  
Old June 19th, 2003, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

Remote mining is more desirable when you play a game where you have restricted colonization and cannot colonize every type of planet. Although in the long haul, you may still be better off destroying the planet and recreating it until you get the right type, but that is a very expensive process.
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  #137  
Old June 24th, 2003, 04:21 AM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

How are the updates coming along??

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  #138  
Old June 26th, 2003, 12:07 AM

Stone Mill Stone Mill is offline
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

Slick, It's all yours to add anything else you deem useful...


Added:

17.3.7.4 The Monolith Economy

Some players rely more heavily on monoliths than others. The Monolith Economy includes them as a key component (used with a resource converter). Included herein are the arguments for and against:

Factors For:

a. It is generally accepted monoliths aren’t efficient in small games or in the early game. If you only care about short term gains (such as early game, small maps, early wars), go with normal miners. If you care about long term gains (large maps, mid-game, no early wars that are not resulting in you steamrolling over a minor empire), go with Monoliths. But in large epic games, going with Monoliths is pretty much always a better idea. Such games often have long periods of peace, and those periods are good for getting Monoliths going. Compare Monolith III with Miner III, 2700 (or 1800 of one resource with converter Is) to 1000 resources. In the long term, Monoliths really pay off. (Imperator Fyron)

b. Build time: Also, SY III + HI + 120 const. apt. gets Monoliths in 3 turns on low pop worlds, and in 2 turns on high pop worlds. Take Organic, and you can make all planets high pop worlds (well, large and huge ones, at any rate) in no time. Temporal is not the only way to get fast construction rates. (Imperator Fyron)

c. Gradual introduction: If you really wanted to build the monolith economy, but still gain maximum resources as soon as possible. Would you not build the normal economy first, say resource II's. But for the final two facility slots build a space yard for improved build and start the first monolith. As each monolith completes, scrap a normal facility and build another monolith. It is a lot a micromanagement, but it will get you the most resources along the way. (cybersol)

d. Building a Robotoid Factory III after the 4th Monolith often takes just one more turn than a Monolith, and gives many more resources than a Robotoid on a planet with normal miners does (as there is much more base production).

Factors Against:

a. I never build monoliths in the early game, and find that Monoliths aren't really comparatively desirable until Monolith III is available. The early build cost (up to 5 turns) with a regular space yard is too prohibitive. Usually, your empire needs immediate application of resources. They also set your economy back because of the high build cost. If I have better construction % (can build them in 2-3 turns), I will be somewhat more likely to use them. Generally, I can only pump out Monoliths this fast with Temporal yards, or when a planet has been eventually groomed to SY III, jubilant, high population. (Stone Mill)

b. I still look at Monoliths like a luxury item. In a competitive game against humans, I stick with:
-- I usually build monoliths only when I have a planet with good values in all 3 resource types (and there aren't that many of 'em). I may sometimes select a planet with 2 out of 3, if I need those 2 types.
-- If for some reason I am comfortable and don't need the resources immediately, and I don't feel threatened (which is rare). If I'm playing the AI, I may toy around a bit more, because I certainly don't feel as threatened. (Stone Mill)

c. If anyone wants to prove it to themselves, just do a few case studies and add up the net resources over time:
- make sure you subtract the resources you spend on the facilities you build and add in the resources the facility makes on the turn after it is built. Do this for every turn and you will find that building monoliths will create a large resource deficit for many turns - is your other income able to absorb this and still be competitive?
- make sure you account for the time it takes to build the facilities,
- you can include a resource converter in the end if you wish, but this really benefits both sides of the argument,
- if you build a spaceyard before building facilities to speed up build time, include the resources and time to build it as well as the increased facility construction rate,
- if you build value improvement plants, include the resources and time to build and the time to increase resource percentages,
- use real game probabilities for planet resource percentages. It is much easier to find a planet which is > 100% in one resource than to find one that is > 100% in all 3 resources.
- consider planet size. no matter what your build rate, it takes far longer to fill a large or huge planet with monoliths than individual resource facilities.
- since monoliths I, II, III all cost the same, they all take the same time to build, but the lower level ones produce less. on a standard planet with standard construction rate (2000, 2000, 2000) a single resource facility level II can be built in 1 turn with no spaceyard. When the Last one is built, they all can be upgraded to level III's. This method will fill a planet the quickest and the extra cost for upgrading is made up by having the level II facilities built in 1 turn instead of 2 turns for a level III so you have the income sooner.
- finally compare both schemes and see how low your resource deficits get while building (this will surprise the monolith builders) and how many turns out it takes before a monolith planet exceeds a single resource planet. There is no doubt that a monolith system will eventually outproduce single resource facilities. The real question is at what point and what happens in the meantime? You will find that this time is very long (too many variables to put a discrete number here), but try some case studies yourself and you can see that it will be many many turns. And in the meantime, your enemies are coming... (Slick)

[ June 25, 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Stone Mill ]
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  #139  
Old June 26th, 2003, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

I have the football. Thanks!

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  #140  
Old June 27th, 2003, 07:19 AM
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Default Re: Strategy Articles!

I saw this mentioned several times earlier in this thread, but don't understand how it works. How does building a space yard help with constructing facilities that take 2+ turns? I haven't seen it increase the construction rate of planets.
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