MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)

[Thufir]

Can I ask if this game is actually being played or not? The reason I ask is that Tyrant had recently opened a new game, got a crew signed up, and then stopped the game at my request when I screwed up my pretender upload. He did not immediately create a new game, and when he attempted to, the 23 game limit had been reached. Since no new games have been created since his attempt, that means that some older game must've been stopped and restarted. My best guess is that this is the game that's been restarted.

So, if you guys are not intending to play this out, can we coordinate w/ Tyrant to make sure that Tyrant gets the slot?

TIA,

Thufir

[archaeolept]

the game is still going, whatever storm's self-righteous spaz.

he should be looking for a substitute.

Frankly, we've only been fighting for 3 turns, and I offered to w/draw my acceptance of a combined victory. as such, storm's claim that

My attempts to talk to Archae and QM against such "alliance victory" were not successeful.

is an out and out lie. I don't much care whether there's an alliance victory or not, though long endgames bore me.

Let us be clear: storm's extremely aggressive diplomacy towards both me and quantum alienated both of us - even though all my initial plans for the game originally involved looking for an ally against quantum's pangaia. However, storm was just so irritating and self-righteous both of us eventually coalesced against him. And, to us, he looked to be the strongest as he had just taken out most of the southern continent.

What then happened was that storm put forth a lot of bragging and trash talk. frankly, i believed him as to his capabilites and fully expected to lose two armies this past turn; especially since he's played far more endgames than I have. However, it was all hot air, and this Last turn he blew most of his prime units on obviously risky and unthought-out attacks. This is why he now wants to find some excuse to quit, not any supposed victory agreement between me and quantum.

Remember: this was his game, his "no quitters" game.

he had 10 times more SCs, more gem income, better reseach, much better army)

10 times? that's bizarre, and quite untrue are you saying that I had 80+ SCs? (since you had at least 8 that i even knew about, including an allfather, 2 air queens, 2 water queens, an AQ mummy, and tartarians). my gem income was slightly higher, and my army better (though unknown to me, as I did not know what storm's forces consisted of).

All I can say is that if I wanted to win the game in such manner, I would won it twice already, beyond any doubts.

but here we see the essence of storm's mental processes: he seems to need to convince himself that he deserves to win so badly that he w/draws into fantasy. Machaka also offered me an alliance; and at the stage where storm was offered the alliance, Machaka had already been largely eviscerated by the war and had absolutely no forces to send against me; much less sufficient forces to destroy me lol. Storm was uninterested in an alliance w/ machak because he expected to take out all of machaka's remaining territory, which he almost did.

Anyways, the alliance victory no longer holds (it was never set in stone anyways - as I just told quantum that I would accept one), since storm is being so whiny about it.

No quitters huh? LOL

[Stormbinder]

What a pile of nonsense Archae. I am somewhat dissapointed to hear it from you.


You mostly did not dispute any of the facts that I said in my post, you are just trying to spin them around.

And when you try to contradict me directly it is simply untrue.

Just few points from your letter:


I only have 1 water queen, not 2. Always had.

As I said you were leading in *all* graphs when you offered that "alliance victory" option to qunatum, except my slight lead in provinces and gold income. You had more gem income, better reseach, *much* more SCs(specifically you had all Archdevils, all Icedevils, Demon Lords (except those owened by Pangeya), Helios(excpet those owned by Pangeya), your pretender), some some Fire/Earth Kings, plus other SCs), *much* better army, *much* more blood income.
All SCs I had, when you and Pangeya joined in "alliance victory" plan against me that you have offered to him, was 2(two) AQs , 1(one) pretender, 1(one) WQ, and 1(one) tantarian. 1 AQ mummy came either around that time or shortly after it, and was promptly blinded in the very first battle with Machaka. I had no other SCs whatsoever. Your math has nothing to do with reality.
In such conditions offering "alliance victory" to 3rd (and Last) major nation is very lame in my honest opinion.


I expressed my feeling about it to you and to quantum very clearly at that time. You personally told me that this was not directly prohibited by the rules, that's the way you want to play it, and that you dislike endgames. Quantum said pretty much the same, and he also told me that he accepted your offer and because of this he is withdrewing from NoneAgressionTreaty with me. Are you going to dispute it? Or are you telling that QM was lieing?


Finally I already freely admited that your 2 combined nations are obviously stronger than any combination of all other nations, including my own. So your boasting about your two victories this turn does not make any sense, since I already admited that I will eventualy lose. I killed Quantum's pretender this turn, got 2 very expensive unique battle artifacts from him, wiped out 2 of his armis and broke the gates of two of his castles while breaking his sieges on two of mine. I also suffered some serious losses. But it all does not matter at the end, since as I said the writing on the wall is clear.



The Machaka part of your letter is totally untrue. He offered me to throw the game in my favor on two ocasions, first time when he was still the largest nation in the world. You, Archae, have agreed yourself that he could easely do it, if he would go ahead with his plan of fighting you and not resisting me. That's excactly why you backed off, since you obviously wanted to win the game by yourself. I just never expected that you would come with such "genious" "alliance victory" plan as you did, to archive your goal.


Now you are trying to tell us that Machaka was weak and harmless. LOL. Why than you backed of from his theat and whined so much about his "blackmail"???


Of course I wanted to win the war against him myself. The the goal of the war, you know. When I attacked him after his agression against Marignon, Machaka was the most powerfull nation on the globe, as everybody, including yourself, agreed. But nevertheless I wanted to beat him myself, not receive the victory on the golden plate in "alliance" with him against you, as he have offered repeatedly during our war, or to recieve the victory on the game on the golden plate, if he would direct all his forces against you, and allow me to overun his empire, as he threaten to do. Feel the difference archae. You was pissed and scared by his threat, since you knew very well just like I did, that it was very credible. That was the only reason why you backed off.



As for your "allaince voctory" that was "never set a stone" - sorry, but that's a total bull****. You have directly offered it an "alliance victory" to Quantum. He have accepted it. He told me about it himeself when he withdrew from NAT with me and attacked me, and you withdrew from NAT with me one turn before that. Whom do you think you are fooling Archae?



I would never quit the game if you would not turn game that was supposed to be FFA into that lame "alliance victory" crap with other major nation, when your was already was the strongest nation in the game, partly because you never was in a single challenging war in this game. If you dislike endgames so much you should find a sub for yourself, I am sure there would be a lot of takers. IMO "alliance victory" is very lame solution to avoid long endgames.



If you will manage to find a sub let me know. I've set game to 6000 hours quickhost for now. Otherwise please don't insult other people intelligence with your spin.

[quantum_mechani]

Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude. When Arch offered a combined victory agreement (presumably because he was also feeling the same annoyance at the diplomacy), this was a main motivation. In addition, from the graphs, he seemed the most powerful nation and it did not seem like the war was any kind of automatic win. Apparently Storm was also not sure how good his chances were, as he waited until 3 turns into the war to decide to quit. Lastly, I do dislike late game, and thus I saw the war as way of killing 3 birds with one stone.

The bottom line is that I do not consider it unfair to ally against arguably the most powerful nation, who has also threatend my nation in the past.

A final note on WQs: I have seen both the Queen of the Deeps and The Queen of the Lake under his control at different times. As far as know, neither myself or Arch has killed one. If Mackaka killed one, my mistake.

[Stormbinder]

quantum_mechani said:
Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude. When Arch offered a combined victory agreement (presumably because he was also feeling the same annoyance at the diplomacy), this was a main motivation. In addition, from the graphs, he seemed the most powerful nation and it did not seem like the war was any kind of automatic win. Apparently Storm was also not sure how good his chances were, as he waited until 3 turns into the war to decide to quit. Lastly, I do dislike late game, and thus I saw the war as way of killing 3 birds with one stone.

The bottom line is that I do not consider it unfair to ally against arguably the most powerful nation, who has also threatend my nation in the past.

A final note on WQs: I have seen both the Queen of the Deeps and The Queen of the Lake under his control at different times. As far as know, neither myself or Arch has killed one. If Mackaka killed one, my mistake.

LOL. I have no idea what you saw quantum but I never had 2 WQs, only one. Always had. You can see it swiming in the sea this turn, right under your nose. Not you, not Machaka, not Marignon haven't killed any WQs of mine. The only 2nd WQ that ever existed in the game was yours. You could not possibly see 2nd WQ under my control. And in the future at least have a decency to put "I think" when you write such statements. You would look better than, trust me.




I don't know how you could feel that I was the most powerfull nation when I was trailing Mictlan in all indicatiors except small lead in gold income and province number, while I unlike him I had been engaged in the difficult war for many turns. But whatever. I did wait for 3 turns trying to see if the situation was possible to salvage, simply because I invested a lot of time in this game, so I didn't want to quit immideatly, despite you turning FFA game into "team game". But I told you and Arache what I think about your "alliance victory" option very clearly, and you know what you have replyed to me, don't you?


And this is not just my opinion, as you can see from this thread Izaques (R'leh player) feel the same. I think Marignon also would join the same sentiments, although I am not going to speak for him myself, he can do it himself if he'll decide to it.



Finally QM if you really don't understand the difference between temporarely alliance, and "alliance victory", I suggest you think again about it, before posing more of your "facts". And if you dislike endgames in Dom2 so much as you say you do, I would recommend you in the future to stay away from the games against veteran players played on medium or large maps, or if you do play them find a sub for yourself at the end, instead of spoiling the game for other players.

[quantum_mechani]

Stormbinder said:

LOL. I have no idea what you saw quantum but I never had 2 WQs, only one. Always had. You can see it swiming in the sea this turn, right under your nose. Not you, not Machaka, not Marignon haven't killed any WQs of mine. The only 2nd WQ that ever existed in the game was yours. You could not possibly see 2nd WQ under my control. And in the future at least have a decency to put "I think" when you write such statements. You would look better than, trust me.




I don't know how you could feel that I was the most powerfull nation when I was trailing Mictlan in all indicatiors except small lead in gold income and province number, while I unlike him I had been engaged in the difficult war for many turns. But whatever. I did wait for 3 turns trying to see if the situation was possible to salvage, simply because I invested a lot of time in this game, so I didn't want to quit immideatly, despite you turning FFA game into "team game". But I told you and Arache what I think about your "alliance victory" option very clearly, and you know what you have replyed to me, don't you?


And this is not just my opinion, as you can see from this thread Izaques (R'leh player) feel the same. I think Marignon also would join the same sentiments, although I am not going to speak for him myself, he can do it himself if he'll decide to it.



Finally QM if you really don't understand the difference between temporarely alliance, and "alliance victory", I suggest you think again about it, before posing more of your "facts". And if you dislike endgames in Dom2 so much as you say you do, I would recommend you in the future to stay away from the games against veteran players played on medium or large maps, or if you do play them find a sub for yourself at the end, instead of spoiling the game for other players.

To accuse _me_ of spoiling the game for other players is absurd. I never suggested quitting without finding find a sub (unlike a few other players in this game). Is a semi-alliance victory ruining it for Ry'leh/Marignon? They don't really have a realistic chance of winning at this point, and a final war like this was coming regardless of where the sides were drawn. Am I ruining it for you by having a semi-alliance victory? As I said before we would have done a temorary allience anyway, so if you situation is as hopeless as you say, you would be dead either way. That pretty much leaves you arguing that Arch and I are ruining it for ourselves, and while I appreciate you concern, I'm afraid we will just have to live with it.

The agreement with Arch was actually a 'temporary' alliance, once you were finished off, we had talked about continuing the game a little while to find out who was the supreme god of the pantheon. However, as it is my guess that he would be significantly than me stronger at that point, it is most likely we would skip the formality for micromanagement's sake.

Anyway, whether a temporary alliance or game ending one, it dosn't affect your situation at all. The thing you overlook in all your Posts is that your diplomacy brought this on yourself, indeed it might have been more tactically sound to ally with you vs. mictlan. After all the threats and general machinations though, there was no way I was going to do that.

My point about you waiting 3 turns is still valid, why would you play them if you thought you had no chance and would quit in a few turns anyway? And if you could not tell for sure that such a war would doom you, how was I to know?

I'm beginning to think that anyone other than yourself winning this game would have resulted in accusations of unfairness.

[archaeolept]

lol storm, you are the one spoiling the game by quitting in this "no quitters" game. As far as i can tell, you have not even made the littlest effort to find a sub, and would rather that the game go to hell due to your fit of pique that is really just motivated by your losing position - a position that you find yourself in purely due to your poor play, especially as to attempting diplomatic hardball w/ both me and quant.

I would recommend that you not play games against players who might beat you.

Since I've already repudiated the joint victory I had proposed to quantum, and that this joint victory was just to avoid a long and tedious endgame, you are left w/ nary a leg to stand on as to your supposed rationale for quitting. the truth is you can't bear to lose, and would rather kick up a huge sh*t storm than admit to it.

As to your math, it is attrocious as usual.

Storm posted:
Your math has nothing to do with reality.

yet you list 6 SCs. at that time I would have had 5 IDs (not counting mr. icicle fists) 5 ADs, one demon lord, and a pretender outfitted, or almost so, as SCs. As well, I would have had a king of elemental fire and father illearth way back in my lines being used as forgers (hence, SC chassis's, though not currently usable as SC's), and one sucky heliophagus used as a scout, since it seemed too dangerous to send him against PD

Let me see. that gives me 12 SC's, 14 including chassis's. How is that "10 times" the number of SC's you had (admitted to 6, not counting large numbers of mini-SC van thugs). how is 12, or even 14, this 10 times 6 storm? please explain.

more of your creative math:

As I said you were leading in *all* graphs when you offered that "alliance victory" option to qunatum, except my slight lead in provinces and gold income

this is just absurd. ignoring army size, which is basically useless (though I was ahead, it included large amounts of national troops and imps), right before the war when i made the alliance w/ Quantum you were significantly ahead in provinces and gold, tied in dominion, ahead in castles. I was only ahead of you in research and gems. This is easy enough for anyone w/ a single eye to see from the graphs. you were ahead in 3, tied in 1, and i was ahead in 3 (including army size). You are so desperate that you are reduced to pure confabulation and outright fabrication of reasons.

If you must be a baby and go home crying to mommy, pls at least find a substitute. I'm sure quantum and I would be happy to completely change the diplomatic situation w/ a different, less whiny, player.

[Cainehill]

quantum_mechani said:
Ok, probably won't change anything, but here is my point of view:

Storm has indeed been conducting very aggressive diplomacy in this game, and I had already been considering a war with him at some point simply due to his obnoxious attitude.

What? Stormwhiner, oops, sorry, it's StormQuitter isn't it, anyways, Storm being obnoxious? Say it ain't so!?!

And quitting in this manner, in a game which he (as always) called for "no quitters", is just the icing on the cake. He even says, "I could still struggle for a very long time in this game, since I have a lot of different resourses, unique artifacts and strong overall position, but such "endgame" simply does not make any sense for me."

Hey Stormie - how is this different from other people quitting when they're in a losing position, even though they could "struggle for a very long time", because it "does not make any sense" to them because it ain't fun anymore?

And putting the responsibility on other players to find a substitute for your quitting self? That's adding churlishness and childishness to blatant hypocrisy.

Yay! Three cheers for good old Saint StormBinder, people!

[Stormbinder]

ROFL.

I knew cain could not resist posting in such thread.


To quantum/archae:

Other people? What other people are you talking about, please tell?


R'leh player have told you that your "alliance victory" crap have spolied the game for him. Maltrease is very polite guy who does not like controversy, but I think he feels the same.


In case you guys haven't noticed not me, not R'leh, not Marignon are not interested in continuing this game given the way things they are. You have turned the game from FFA to "team game", with your "team" having significantly more resourses than the rest of the nations combined. There is no much point of continuing playing such game. I hope you'll be able to enjoy such "victory".


That means that nobody other than archae/quantum with their "shared victory" wants to continue this game.

But what realy cracked me up is Archae braging of him beating me, after he himself beged quantum to agree to "shared victory" option, only because he was too afraid to deal with me himself. That statement really made my day.


Amyway, enough of this pissing contest. If you'll find 2 or 3 subs silly enough to enjoy playing such "team" game against team that have much more resourses than the rest of the nations combined, go ahead and do it. Other people are asking me to give them the slot of our game if it is finished. So hurry up.

[quantum_mechani]

As much as I hate to drag this out, you still have not addressed any of the points in my post. In addition, I've heard you say in the past that diplomacy was one of (if not the most) important parts of a long term dominions game. I would say by that measure you are losing fair and square- angering the two other major nations is not a great idea diplomatically. As for Ry'leh/ Magrignon, I would be fine with breaking up the alliance and continuing the game after Vanheim is gone, if they still fell like they can affect the outcome.

As for the WQs, I was quite sure I saw 2 different ones, I'm not accusing you of lieing, it does seem unlikly that you would not remember summoning one. So, I would not at all rule out that I was mistaken.