MBT's

[DRG]

It does seem like a lot of effort just to make a slightly more advanced target for 120mm guns

Don

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Yes it does, but I think most of us have seen worse from our diverse backgrounds. I think as suggested and I believe Marcello was saying as well, we just need to "KISS" when it comes to the Po. Bigger engine, faster, more maneuverable, more mobile, longer range, increased power generation, up-armored and maybe more ammo. These things again make sense given the terrain there and with it's neighbors. The only unknown for me is not what we can see but, what we can't. Considering the Po is NKs "most advanced" tank, have they managed to keep up appearances but managed to improve the internal components, say as an example, the gun mounted laser range finder to make it more capable? This is again the only question for me concerning Po. And unless someone can get one of these tanks we might never know, however given Marcello's avatar I nominate him to go in there and get us one, if you watched the show you'd understand why I volun...nominated Marcello!?! I'd go but I have to work later today-sorry!

Regards,
Pat

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

It does seem like a lot of effort just to make a slightly more advanced target for 120mm guns

Don

The south korean army has about 500 tanks equipped with 120mm guns and still 1900 or so K1 and M48 fitted with 105mm.
The K2 will eventually displace the M48, but not exactly overnight and the 105mm K1 are going to stay. There are some Abrams in the USFK but overall the 120mm tanks are probably going to be a third or less of the total tank force for the time being. Clearly a tank proof against 105mm guns would still have an advantage in many tactical situations.

[DRG]

Well consider this. If the PO was designed to take on 105mm rounds what we have modeled in the game needs more armour before it can fullfil it's role.

ANYTHING we do in regards to this tank is going to an "educated WAG" The best pen from a SK M48A5K is 45. The best pen from a K1A1 is 85. If Kim figures most of his potential oppositing is M48's and this tank can stand up to them then I need to boost front hull and turret armour up by 20%. I have no problem doing that assuming we can agree that is prudent.

That would put a PO just a touch above a T-72M1 in armour ( or a touch below a T72B when reactive is applied ) which may ( or not..) be reasonable

Don

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Marcello

The south korean army has about 500 tanks equipped with 120mm guns and still 1900 or so K1 and M48 fitted with 105mm.
The K2 will eventually displace the M48, but not exactly overnight and the 105mm K1 are going to stay. There are some Abrams in the USFK but overall the 120mm tanks are probably going to be a third or less of the total tank force for the time being. Clearly a tank proof against 105mm guns would still have an advantage in many tactical situations.

.....and HOW MANY Po's are there realistically ?? I'll be wildly optimistic and say it's considerably below the total of 120 mm armed tanks in the SK armoury and even if it's 3 or 4 hundred ( which it won't be ) the SK solution to the 120 /105 gun "imbalance" is to adopt the "Firefly" model of tank distribution and there will always be a 120 around to slice and dice the PO's.

The NK strength is arty, not tanks. The Po seems more of a propaganda exercise.

Don

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by DRG

.....and HOW MANY Po's are there realistically ?? I'll be wildly optimistic and say it's considerably below the total of 120 mm armed tanks in the SK armoury and even if it's 3 or 4 hundred ( which it won't be ) the SK solution to the 120 /105 gun "imbalance" is to adopt the "Firefly" model of tank distribution and there will always be a 120 around to slice and dice the PO's.
The NK strength is arty, not tanks. The Po seems more of a propaganda exercise.
Don

Well, if you recall Russia kept buying tiny amounts of T-80s and T-90s back in the 90's even when the economy was in the gutter.
Ukraine buys the odd modernized T-64 from Morozov every other year. Iran has its indigenous AFV program that will have replaced the existing fleet by the 22nd or 23rd century etc.
Why are such things done? Various reasons: attempts to keep production lines open (which at least in the T-90 case paid off handsomely), bureaucratic inertia, the idea that limited modernization is better than no modernization at all, propaganda etc.
That being said even a single "èlite" tank battalion could make a difference in, let's say, a coup attempt.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

The Po tanks to date are assigned to the 105th Seoul Ry-Kyong Guards Div. a very famous unit known as the 1st Armored Div. that made it's mark during the Korean War. They are believed to operate ~250 Po tanks. It is not known of any further production except for replacement units, remember this program has been around quite a few years. I re-offer the following Para 4 down for current discussion is representative of other refs submitted except maybe to extent of up armored the Po is:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=391

Jane's 25 Nov. 2010 reports that of the K1 tanks, 484 are
KIA1 120mm variants. K2 production was to reach ~680 tanks, cut to 500, cut again to possibly only 100. However the number appears to be back possibly ~500 again due to recent incidents with NK and the surge in China's defence spending as I've been regularly "reporting" on. From Post #120:
http://www.janes.com/products/janes/...1&rd=janes_com
Will have more on this later this weekend-I hope!?!

For an excllent read on the Korean War see THE COLDEST WAR by David Halberstam. Besides the "war" it covers the political issues as well in depth and sets the tone and understanding for todays relationship between China and North Korea and Russia and the U.S. interests in the area and it's roots.

Have to get ready for work have a good day all!!
Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Finally made it to the news of LW+!

1. First up the ARJUN finally gets deployed to it's AOR with the 75th Tank Regiment one two regiments equipped with ARJUN.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news112960.html

2. Concerning the K2 specifically S. Korea's UNIT 025 & 033.
A. Is the CIWS (Close In Weapons System) the same as the APS (Active Protection System), I think yes? Shots are right @ 2.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23219/

B. Is the Gatling gun shown in the picture below mounted on the units above, and does it look larger then a 7.62mm?

C. The news is after a year of delays in dealing with power pack issues (This issue also had effected the K21 as well.) the K2 could be restarting production this year or next. Not recommending any change in fielding date yet just not enough info yet. Something I'm watching. Will provide one of three that say production for this year and one for next. Jane's would put the number of K1 tanks at ~1050, see last post on K2 numbers also from Jane's and a couple of others.
http://articles.janes.com/articles/J...rea-South.html
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...92&c=FEA&s=SPE
Reading the above it seems like some tanks are already built before production was stopped just awaiting installation of the power packs and completion of the operational tests on going through August w/o reading too much between the lines.
So it looks like JAN. 2013 or sooner maybe. Prototypes are at around 25 units of which some might be early production units.
For GP:
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor...p?armor_id=289
Pic:


3. Thailand looking for tanks (200 Medium type.) and other newer equipment. These new tanks once identified would replace the
M-41 based STINGRAY tanks.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/world/art...pons-purchases.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product929.html
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/...light_tank.htm

Pic:


4. Say goodbye to 60 Dutch LEO's and more from "DID".
http://www.nisnews.nl/public/080411_2.htm

FOLLOW UP HERE!

Regards,
Pat

[Marcello]

I found this video, showing both north korean tank types the discussion has been about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHywk...eature=related

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

News from LW+

1. To Marcello's video in the previous post first THANKS! and second 115mm all the way.

2. Back to the ARJUN this next site has listed it as NEW to their equipment list. It has a little more info on armor type and capabilities. Though it still doesn't disclose which country was quoted as touting the ARJUN as one of the worlds best tanks from the earliest posts I submitted, I think the field is narrowed down considerably from my much earlier thoughts on the subject. Elbit of Israel and KMW of Germany apparently played a much larger role in the development of the ARJUN then was publicly revealed earlier. I think we have enough information to agree that at the very least it's a very capable tank in it's own right especially after the way it performed against the T-90S last year. ARJUN MKII will be developed with 95 new upgrades.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/arjun-mbt/

3. Related to the above, the ARJUN MKII is on track to begin trials this June.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news107583.html

4. DAPA South Korea giving indigenous engine maker until October to fix the problems or the engines and transmissions are coming from Germany. K2 pushed back to 2013 now because of the technical issues involved to date.
http://www.army-technology.com/news/news114282.html
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/k1/

5. Haven't had a chance to check if it's in already but, Ukraine to field the new STUGNA-P ATGW.
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20110420/163616103.html
http://www.armyrecognition.com/ukrai...identification

6. Dutch disband 2 LEO Tank Battalions due to budget cuts.
http://www.defpro.com/news/details/23767/

TRACK FOR DATES!

Regards,
Pat