Exploit question

[Lingchih]

Wow. Since the last time I posted, this has gone from being a discussion of using Bogus' copied orders, to a discussion/argument on gemgens, and then of course to monkey PD. This is like the all-in-one topic of all time!

[sansanjuan]

Originally Posted by Lingchih

Wow. Since the last time I posted, this has gone from being a discussion of using Bogus' copied orders, to a discussion/argument on gemgens, and then of course to monkey PD. This is like the all-in-one topic of all time!

Crazy indeed. Shows there is still a lot of passion out there for a game that was launched in 2006. The pretty models adorning the Shrapnel Banners seem quite passionate about the game too. Takes the sting out of being double teamed when you imagine your opponents might be the ladies from the Banner ads.

I was also going to ask if hiring and toasting indy priests with "Life after death" in effect is considered mainstream or an exploit? But... I'm... not... sure... I should....
-ssj

[Kuritza]

Clever Baalz, very clever indeed.
50 provinces for two players and easy research, so you automatically skip the most dangerous phase... just pick Bandar Log in a real game with old-timers, and win it. My respect towards you will skyrocket then - though I bet my two games will end earlier.

[Baalz]

So the most dangerous part is the part where clams have no effect? I don't even know what you're arguing, and apparently neither do you.

Originally Posted by Kuritza

Who cares if magic sites are common, if national troops remain important throughout the whole game, and your national troops suck? Bandar Log without clams against Shinuyama! Ha ha, Machaka against double-bless Mictlan! Eriu against MA Vanheim! MA Oceania against anything! All strategies revolve against just one thing - imba fast expansion. There is just no alternate route.

I came up with what I thought was a scenario to show that against some fairly fast expanders who would presumably out expand Bandar you could still be competitive. In a time frame where according to you lack of gem gens would cripple a nation who has "troops that suck". I specifically include every nation you mention here as a potential challenger, with the considerable advantage of knowing ahead of time exactly what I'm playing...and you think I stacked the odds in my favor? I'm answering the assertion that my suggested strategies "just don't work" and "nobody has ever [or can ever] win with Bandar", and I think it's a pretty big stretch to try and claim I contrived an artificially favorable scenario.

So, I call BS and ask for you (or anybody) to prove to me the ludicrous claim that Bandar Log "can NEVER win NEVER". Should be easy to do, no? All I've got is a bunch of theorycraft which doesn't really work.

[Kuritza]

I have promised not to play anymore. I dont say such things lightly, hm?

Most dangerous part is when you have no clams and no research. Just a bunch of apes.
And 1vs1 duels are different from real games with lots of players, you know that. Even where your tricks can win one war, they wont be enough to bring you victory in a real MP environment.
I know monkeys can win one early war with just 2 or 3 kinnaras (perfectly possible without clams) and perhaps some yakshas/nagas. I did it myself, you know, before I started bombarding you with golems and Kinnaras in Lapis. I didnt start that game with a ton of clams.
Problems start later (or before).

And I dont have to prove you anything. Say what you might, but when Pythium has over 7 victories in MA, Pangaea has at least 5, Abyssia-Shinuyama-Jotunheim-Caelum have 3 victories each and Bandar Log has ZERO, it has everything to do with nations power. Kek, Bandar Log didnt even win Cripple Fight. If you want to prove otherwise - go ahead, do it. Prove us that your theorycrafting about unstoppable markatas works in real MP.

[vfb]

[Trumanator]

I'd like to point out that the first Cripple Fight actually didn't include a fair number of nations that are almost universally perceived as weaksauce, including both Oceanias, Marverni, and both Mans. It included some nations that I'm pretty sure weren't considered weak, like Gath and EA Aby. HoF means very little I think.

Since it used CBM 1.5, there were gemgens, and they are nearly the only reason MA Atlantis won, since he was able to simply turtle underwater and still maintain an income of several hundred pearls.

[Zeldor]

Lingchih:

You forgot about Setsumi drama :P

Trumanator:

Exactly, Abysia had clams and stones too though. He did not used them so well. I wasted few hundred S too probably. And there was Ermor with clamhoarding too. It was extremely lame - Atlantis with no N mages at all. So strat is to empower on W guy in N, summon Naiad, forge clams, cast maelstrom, get more naiads, get more clams, put nexus, get seraphs -> win.



There are some national changes that had to be in 1.6 but did not make it. I am sure there will be many more national balance things in cbm 1.7. Maybe QM won't be afraid to do it now [as taking gemgens out was rather risky thing, but most people support it now]. There are some real things to be done, for example lowering MA Pythium cap gem income.

[Kuritza]

Oh, since you mentioned Setsumi (actually, I dont think it was brought up here yet, you're the first) - I hope LA Ermor will be buffed in CBM 1.7, by lowering the cost of Spectators and Dusk Elders. )))))) Chaff is so weak and useless, after all. :P

[Gandalf Parker]

As with many of the absolute statements about this sucks or this always wins it always tends to break down into but of course I meant this size game with this number of players on this size map using this mod and this winning condition.

Thats one of the problems I have with discussions of balance. They tend to pigeonhole the game into specifics which knock out some of the balancing features, and then either complain about them or try to "fix" them. And any mention of games outside those parameters are tossed aside.