Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it.

[-Storm-]

The AI won't be better with these scripts. All they do is that you will have a harder start.
Still it can help until the AI is being fixed.

[HJ]

Originally posted by licker:
I agree that there are some (balance mostly) issues that may be negatively impacting the AI right now. However, I don't think that only modding is going to be the answer to 'fixing' the AI, unless the modders are able to somehow change the priorities of the AI in game. It is fine to make maps that should be more challenging, but it still doesn't strike at some of the underlieing (supposed) weaknesses. Starting the AI with more HI is fine, but if they don' continue to build more HI the advantage is soon lost (well depending on how many HI you start them with). Taking LI away from them completely (assuming you can do that by modding the units files) is another work around, but its also not really satisfactory in making the AI 'smarter'.

Alot of the discussion in this thread has tried to uncover the mechanisms by which the AI is making its army build selections, already it has been uncovered that perhaps the AI isn't building enough forts to allow for better troop recruitment, maybe the AI doesn't understand how to save money to build what it needs to, I don't know, but issues like that can only be 'patched' by scripting maps, they need to be fixed by some tweeking of the inputs to the AI, that's what I'm hoping is possible, as I don't want a complete rewrite, just the ability to tweek existing inputs.

I agree with most of what you said. Pre-scripting the AI conditions is pretty much the same as giving the AI the ability to cheat. So, for example that on impossible difficulty the AI gets free units, etc. This is what most of the games do to increrase difficulty, from RTS onwards, but this is not really what most people were saying that they want in this thread. Beside, one of the big pluses in Doms II is that you can start the same map many times over and have a vastly different game due to other factors being fairly randomized, such as starting locations, richness, sites, etc. Hardcoded scenarios are not really a solution in terms of replay possibilities (one of the greatest strengths of this game, IMHO).

The thing where I don't agree is that externalizing the AI input would solve the problem. I would much prefer it to be done in the vanilla game than to have mods to do it. Maybe it's just me, as I never found mods to be attractive: there are always things that I don't agree with in them, and I don't feel compelled to accept that in the same way I think about the vanilla game, so I never play them. That's not to say that mods wouldn't help input-wise, as people could have more exact suggestions to give to the devs, but I would like nothing better than to see it improved in the actual vanilla (patched) game.

[licker]

Originally posted by HJ:


The thing where I don't agree is that externalizing the AI input would solve the problem. I would much prefer it to be done in the vanilla game than to have mods to do it. Maybe it's just me, as I never found mods to be attractive: there are always things that I don't agree with in them, and I don't feel compelled to accept that in the same way I think about the vanilla game, so I never play them. That's not to say that mods wouldn't help input-wise, as people could have more exact suggestions to give to the devs, but I would like nothing better than to see it improved in the actual vanilla (patched) game.

Well my case for letting the mods at it wasn't to ignore the vanilla game, but to allow the devs to let the modders do alot of the work for them

I am all for a 'Gold Standard' in the Vanilla game, I just think you'll reach a better one faster if you have several people able to change parameters than only a few, even if those few are the only ones who really matter (sucking up to the devs can't hurt right? )

Its easier for the devs if people can tell them that by changing the ratio of HI to LI, or the amount of resources earmarked for mages by some number has this effect, rather than the Devs having to make a change, see what everyone thinks, then go back and tweek it again. Besides don't write off mods too quickly, while there is a need for greater consensus for the MP crowd, the SPers are free to dabble and use whatever strikes their fancy, most serious mods have enough details to let a new user know ahead of time whether its worth their down load or not

[HJ]

Originally posted by licker:
Well my case for letting the mods at it wasn't to ignore the vanilla game, but to allow the devs to let the modders do alot of the work for them

I am all for a 'Gold Standard' in the Vanilla game, I just think you'll reach a better one faster if you have several people able to change parameters than only a few, even if those few are the only ones who really matter (sucking up to the devs can't hurt right? )

Its easier for the devs if people can tell them that by changing the ratio of HI to LI, or the amount of resources earmarked for mages by some number has this effect, rather than the Devs having to make a change, see what everyone thinks, then go back and tweek it again. Besides don't write off mods too quickly, while there is a need for greater consensus for the MP crowd, the SPers are free to dabble and use whatever strikes their fancy, most serious mods have enough details to let a new user know ahead of time whether its worth their down load or not

In that case I agree completely with your previous post. As I already said, input-wise role is indeed very desirable, it would then be something more like an open beta for the AI. If nothing else, it would speed up the process of improving the AI for the patches, and make it easier for the devs by giving them time to implement other things while people are dabbling with the AI, as they would just test the suggestions to see whether they'll implement them or not.

[DominionsFan]

Hm yeah good idea. I know some games, where you can script AIs.

Btw, why no answer from the devs about the strategic AI problems?

[Patrik]

What are you talking about DominionsFAN? KO posted in this thread less than 3 days ago.

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:

I got an idea regarding AI dependancy on LI when I was away. Vacations are 'foyson' for the mind.

Also, IW has asked for save files showing flagrant AI mistakes. What kind of 'answers' are you asking for anyway? I certianly hope it's not these

Originally posted by DominionsFAN:
Kris, copy and paste that list by Aristoteles, and try to fix those problematic points step by step. Oh and don't foget to reply here, that how is it going!

Apart from this post bordering on offensive (It's not up to you to decide Illwinter's priorities), this is from 2 days ago!! What do you think will have happened since then??!

[NTJedi]

The most important way to improve the AI is to give the AI different personalities since it cannot improve its game strategy as humans can.

Otherwise no matter how sophisticated an AI opponent is created... gamers will soon find weaknesses or exploits which turns the AI pathetic. IF random personalities were given to each AI opponent at the start of each game then human players will be uncertain as to what weaknesses are currently exist for each opponent.

The only other solution would be to provide a MOD which would allow gamers/map makers to improve the AI using script commands.

[ November 05, 2003, 14:00: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[Karacan]

Originally posted by Alneyan:
Please name one game where the AI is able to do such a thing, or come even close to that.

Warlods III + Darklord's Rising.

I'd like to see different AI personalities, too, but for now I'd prefer a stable and challenging default one, myself.

[MythicalMino]

but they could change their "personalities" mid-game though?

if so, impressive....

[von_Schmidt]

Originally posted by Alneyan:

quote:

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Originally posted by Zerger:
Different personalities? Maybe...but it would be effective, if the AI itself could change the various personalities in-game, depending on the situation.

Please name one game where the AI is able to do such a thing, or come even close to that. .

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In Galactic Civilisations, the opponents have different AI personalities...

Or is this more a question if the AI can switch strategies midgame, depending on the changing situation?

von Schmidt

von Schmidt