Allegiances 2 (Large,Team-Based Game, PLAYING) - Page 16

DrPraetorious · #**151** October 9th, 2007, 05:26 PM

Okay.

So you want me to balance out:
Total number of provinces within 5 hops (disallowing passage through seas)?
Total number of shortest paths to whatever provinces are within 5 hops? Which will mean that each start location has an equal number of nearby chokepoints?

The *only* way to make this even for all start locations (along with inter-capital distances) on a map this size is to have neither water nor impassable mountains, which I think makes for a very boring map.

Is archaeolept the only one who wants a map like this or does anyone else share his concerns? Because the other start locations vary tremendously in this respect, as well.

If we're restarting anyway I'll swap start locations with him, but cannot do anything for the eastern positions.

DrPraetorious · #**152** October 9th, 2007, 06:28 PM

Okay, I've done 2 things:

1) I've switched start locations with the black team.
2) I've moved the two new-blue start locations (the ones west of the lake) so that they are now roughly equidistant between black and green.

Thus, Helheim now has plenty of vectors on which other players can attack him, and he doesn't have to worry that my team is in some kind of predestined cage-match with him.

Green is the only team who might possibly object.

I also changed every "Isle of Balor" (which used to be an empty slot, lol) into a new empty slot #149; hopefully that will stay empty for the forseeable future - otherwise I can just fill every capital with Farms of Plenty, I can't imagine a situation where that would make any difference. Is there a site that *literally* does nothing at all?

EDIT: NOTICE: THERE IS A NEW MAP ATTACHED TO THIS POST. DOWNLOAD IT, AND REPLACE THE OLD ONE WITH IT OR YOU WON'T SEE THE CORRECT START LOZENGES (IT IS THE SAME OTHERWISE).

archaeolept · #**153** October 9th, 2007, 06:38 PM

Quote:

DrPraetorious said:
Okay.

So you want me to balance out:
Total number of provinces within 5 hops (disallowing passage through seas)?
Total number of shortest paths to whatever provinces are within 5 hops? Which will mean that each start location has an equal number of nearby chokepoints?

The *only* way to make this even for all start locations (along with inter-capital distances) on a map this size is to have neither water nor impassable mountains, which I think makes for a very boring map.

Is archaeolept the only one who wants a map like this or does anyone else share his concerns? Because the other start locations vary tremendously in this respect, as well.

If we're restarting anyway I'll swap start locations with him, but cannot do anything for the eastern positions.

goddamn it i am not asking for any exact mirroring bull****. I was responding to your specious mathematics. If you can't use your own eyeballs to see how black team is far more constrained and hemmed in, then there is no possibility of relevant dialogue. the start as is is crap. since dr. p refuses to acknowledge the possibility that he could be wrong, and instead engages in a series of perversions of the issues i have, please remove me from this game. I would far rather be in any old random start game than argue against the person who created a totally bolloxed start.

HOW DO I COMBAT TWO MOTHERFSCKING TEAMS TWO ON ONE DR PRAETORIOUS? HOW IS IT YOU CONVENIENTLY NEVER BOTHER TO RESPOND TO THIS?

I refuse to engage in this humiliating argument any more. I will not be uploading any pretender. Give that start to some chump, and watch dr P's march to greatness.

remember, as there is no problem, there is no reason to change this map w/ my leaving.

perhaps having an interested participant in the game design the start locations is not the best of procedures. I have no trust or faith in the current self-interested system. To my mind, the start of this game has already been poisoned to me by all this bull****. What is the proper procedure in a set start if a participant feels that a start location is much worse than the others?

Snacktime · #**154** October 9th, 2007, 07:29 PM

I am Cyan and I hear our position stinks. I say, it's just a game! We'll do the best with what seems to me to be a relatively fair set-up.

If someone can clarify what actions are needed in light of the patch, though, I'd appreciate that.

Micah · #**155** October 9th, 2007, 08:15 PM

Ok, so DrP spent time making up the map for this game, and as a thank-you gets accused of cheating his way to an unfair starting position, AFTER offering to switch starting positions and take the supposedly "totally bolloxed" one himself. While we're "conveniently not responding" to things I don't see how Arch could miss DrP's offer to switch our starts around (he even quoted it). Arch's last post seems to have become a personal attack instead of a reasonable argument about the map, especially given the choice of language.

Also, chokepoints work both ways, so while the black start is constrained I'm not entirely convinced that that's particularly ruinous. I'd love to hear from someone else in the game if they think that black is in an excessively bad starting position, because no one has yet done so.

archaeolept · #**156** October 9th, 2007, 08:40 PM

i'm not interested in subjecting myself to this bull**** just to get an interesting game started. I appreciate the work he put into this, but instead of responding to what to me is obviously an unfair position, he just engaged in a belittling of my analysis as to why the position sucked. this is not a random start. positions need to be reasonably balanced. i am accused of whining because i don't like two against one? well [censored] you

Micah · #**157** October 9th, 2007, 09:10 PM

How does offering to modify the map and/or switch positions not constitute responding to your concerns Arch?

DrPraetorious · #**158** October 9th, 2007, 09:42 PM

I haven't just *offered* to switch starts, I have *actually done it*.

Edit Brief reply:
On the subject of multiple constraints:
I had to generate several maps before I got one that I thought I could arrange the fourteen start locations in this way, and which had all the water in the middle.

The odds that I will be able to find 14 such provinces that also have similar between-ness (which is the only way I can think of for what archaeolept says he wants to be remotely the same for different starts) are extremely low, and such maps would be hard to pick out by eye.

The only way to easily do this is to not have any mountain ranges or lakes (even small ones generate a lot of chokepoints, and large ones generate an extra "edge" on the map).

So even if I thought this property were desirable (I do not), I couldn't do it.

The second point, that one start has to fight without the support of the ally, has some validity and did concern me. But with the two starts only three provinces apart, I decided that it was less of an issue than insuring that the two positions had different independents to conquer.

End edit

I have just given you a new start which is, by your criterion, extremely strong (yes I counted routes). Since I disagree with your criterion, I'm going to take the start you regard as weak, and I cannot understand why everyone is not happy with this.

Download the new map file (I notice no-one has touched the attachment) and you will see Helheim/Marverni now start in the lower left (which used to be my start location) and I've taken the center-west start location for myself.

I've even moved the two center-west starts to the same latitude, even though I think this makes the position worse (because the immediate neighbors of the two allied starts have more overlap).

Again, I think that the center-west is better than the southwest position that I just gave you - and would have been happy to trade when I was generating the positions in the first place - but didn't, because I assigned them randomly so I was stuck with my assignment. By your criterion, if I understood it correctly, the southwest position is absolutely fantastic - lots of different routes to all over the place.

If this still doesn't satisfy you, because the *other* start locations that you didn't get are not balanced to your satisfaction, by all means, leave. But I have gone to great lengths to accomodate you so if you are leaving now, kindly refrain from joining games where I make maps in the future.

archaeolept · #**159** October 9th, 2007, 10:55 PM

i'm sorry for any discord my concerns caused.

at this point i do not feel good about participating in the game.

i have no doubt some of the blame rests with myself.

homer is a good player and deserves a fresh start with another ally. I would hope it would be easy to open this up for a helheim player. i'm sure it would be a fun and interesting game for many players, but not for myself.

better a fresh start and put all this behind you.

again, please forgive my need to excuse myself from this game.

Velusion · #**160** October 10th, 2007, 02:37 AM

I have nothing to add to the current, um, conversation...

but I do have a suggestion for the next game to save Dr P some headaches.

Before we start he shows the map to everyone with his recommended starting positions. At that point everyone has a day or two to complain/*****. If no one specifically complains about a starting position then at that point you randomize what team gets what position. This way people can't complain after we start.

And thank you DrP for going out of your way to do these maps.