Conceptual Balance Mod v1.92

[PriestyMan]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Great Kraken - Again a decent core idea, but like the Shishi is better than the other options at that level, bump to level 7 5W.

This pretty much makes it impossible to take anything else you say seriously...

Just because you got stomped by a player better than you, dont blame the mod, blame yourself.

[Mightypeon]

I kinda agree on Zmeys being a bit too tough, too cheap (since they can be totally decent with 15 gems of gear, just about anything in their weight class would need more) and available too early.
I actually like giving them cold blooded as a glaring weakness.
They are very hard to kill, even compared with actuall high end summons costing twice the gems.
Grendels are blobs of hitpoints with full slots, that niche is actually suprisingly empty (Iron Angel?) apart from them. Elemental royalty is indeed a bit underpowered in general, but comparing them with Grendels is imho not a good way to establish this.
I have no hard opinion about Shishis and Krakens.
I find Wendigos interesting, while they are available quite early, it will take between 5-10 turns for them to be battle capable, and thats actually quite interesting.

[Squirrelloid]

I haven't had any problems killing zmey... What are you guys trying to kill them with? Srsly.

EDM summons are balanced to the stuff people actually use. Yes, they're better than the random junk at their level - because no one uses the random junk.

[Executor]

No one uses the junk cause EDM pushed it out of the way. People used to rush conj 8 to get ERoys. I think it's been quite a while since I've actually seen one in a game.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by PriestyMan

This pretty much makes it impossible to take anything else you say seriously...

Just because you got stomped by a player better than you, dont blame the mod, blame yourself.

And that has nothing to do with it... but is a good go to when you don't have anything worthwhile to say.

If you are trying to claim that a Sea King's Court (an equivalent level spell) is better or equal summon to 2.75 Great Krakens, I'm not sure that it's my credibility that's a problem.

End game diversity mod is a great idea, mid game diversity mod, which is what it is right now, is, in my opinion, terrible.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Executor

No one uses the junk cause EDM pushed it out of the way. People used to rush conj 8 to get ERoys. I think it's been quite a while since I've actually seen one in a game.

And this is my point, when the royalty are now considered junk, there is a serious problem.

Sure, there was some stuff that was always junk, but there is a lot that was usefull midgame that isn't any more if your using EDM.

[Squirrelloid]

The royalty have always been junk. They were the poor-man's nation SC (poor insofar as they had no other options except tarts if they could get the factory going or wishing for Seraphs). They were and are extremely overcosted.

FWIW, i stopped seeing elemental royalty when gemgens went unique, even before EDM was released. They were never cost effective, and when gem supply got tight, people stopped using them. And i still see QoAs and QoWs, who were the only ones even plausibly worthwhile before. (And anyone who thinks a Grendelkin is better than a QoW doesn't know what he's talking about).

So anyone claiming that its EDM which has marginalized elemental royalty has it wrong. Its not. They were marginalized because they were not efficient summons, and making gemgens unique forced people to be more efficient. No one wishes for Seraphs any more for the same reason - 100s is simply too expensive when gem supplies are tight. They'll never pay off in the long run.

I think there was also a metagame shift at some point. SCs tend to be *very vulnerable* to certain tactics, and people figured out what these tactics are. The value of SCs fell through the floor. I rarely see lone SCs tearing it up these days. They accompany armies or act as glorified thugs raiding PD. No one takes just an SC or a handful of SCs into an army and expects to win these days. (I've seen it attempted just once, and it resulted in the deaths of 2 out of 3 of the SCs involved).

So yes, elemental royalty became less desirable. They don't see as much use these days. But the cause was most certainly not EDM. The change happened before EDM was even released.

--------------------------------

But using Sea King's Court as an example of a good spell is hilarious, btw. Really? It wasn't really worthwhile even when gemgens were non-unique and you could blow gems on useless crap. Its a bad spell, its always been a bad spell, and its lack of use has absolutely nothing to do with EDM.

Streams from Hades, which has more right to feel trod upon by EDM than anything else, still sees play.

[Nightfall]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

The royalty have always been junk. They were the poor-man's nation SC (poor insofar as they had no other options except tarts if they could get the factory going or wishing for Seraphs). They were and are extremely overcosted.

Junk compared to what, Tarts and Chayots/Seraphs, which both require a much more massive amount of investment in research and boosters. Gems used directly in the summon are only one part of the cost of a strategy shift.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

So anyone claiming that its EDM which has marginalized elemental royalty has it wrong.

I didn't say this, but nice strawman, and my comparison was between vanila and CBM(with EDM). I think you'll have a hard time making the case that a QoW is stronger than a grendelkin in any situation other than where you need a high attack, but then that isn't an equivalent comparison anyway, you need to compare 1.5 grendelkin to a QoW. Sure the underwater regen on QoW can be great, but they don't really have enough hp to leverage it.

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

But using Sea King's Court as an example of a good spell is hilarious, btw. Really?

Once again your setting up a straw man. I used that comparison only to refute the inference that it was ridiculous that great kraken were better than other summon spells with similiar requirements.

All that is required to prove I'm wrong is to pick a spell and put forward the case that it better, I'm open to being convinced, but insults aren't going to do it.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Nightfall

Junk compared to what, Tarts and Chayots/Seraphs, which both require a much more massive amount of investment in research and boosters. Gems used directly in the summon are only one part of the cost of a strategy shift.

I didn't say this, but nice strawman, and my comparison was between vanila and CBM(with EDM). I think you'll have a hard time making the case that a QoW is stronger than a grendelkin in any situation other than where you need a high attack, but then that isn't an equivalent comparison anyway, you need to compare 1.5 grendelkin to a QoW. Sure the underwater regen on QoW can be great, but they don't really have enough hp to leverage it.

I was responding to Executor about the elemental royalty, not you. And you don't seem to know what a Strawman actually is. He did specifically advance the claim that elemental royalty don't see play/get rushed because of EDM. That is absolutely false. Elemental royalty faded from play shortly after gemgens were made unique, which was *almost a year* before EDM was created. So the facts do not support Executor's claim that Elemental Royalty suffered due to EDM - they were already virtually unplayed before EDM was ever created.

Once again your setting up a straw man. I used that comparison only to refute the inference that it was ridiculous that great kraken were better than other summon spells with similiar requirements.

All that is required to prove I'm wrong is to pick a spell and put forward the case that it better, I'm open to being convinced, but insults aren't going to do it.

Seriously, you don't know what a Straw Man is... I don't have to create weak positions to argue against - you created the position yourself. Its not a strawman if you actually argued it!

You specifically advanced the position that Sea King's Court doesn't see play because of EDM, or more appropriately, that SKC was weak compared to GKraken. Sea King's Court has *always* been a bad spell. Why would you ever use it over almost 2 Streams from Hades (you wouldn't). So its *not a useful comparison* at all. Your own argument fails because you chose a craptastic spell.

I don't have to disprove anything. That's not how argument works. You are making a positive claim and thus you have to prove it.

But if you really want counter-examples to your general position:

I did specifically note that Streams from Hades still sees play. (It has useful path requirements for bootstrapping into D, for example).

I might also note that Hidden in Snow is better than the same number of gems spent on Krakens. In fact, the only EDM summon I don't routinely prefer HiS against is Wendigos, who may be a little too good for their price. But I use both of them, so maybe Wendigo are about right. I also prefer both to Grendelkin (who, being without magic, I don't find very useful).

I might note that the same number of gems in Manifest Vitriol are better than Krakens, and probably better than Grendelkin.

I might note the same number of gems in Wolven Winter, given the right circumstances (circumstances you can arrange by using chill aura units or thugs), is superior to Krakens.

I would rather forge Bottles of Living Water than summon Krakens. Or boots of quickness. Or frost brands. Or several other magic items.

I might note that Krakens are considered unplayably weak right now by the people who are actually good at the game. They get too few paths, and those paths tend to be really short, so they aren't any good as mages. And they aren't that good as thugs either (insufficiently many slots, too many weaknesses). And they aren't cheap enough or mobile enough to qualify as a budget thug. The only thing EDM krakens have *ever* been useful for was breaking into blood magic during the incarnations they had guaranteed blood picks.

In short, Krakens are junk compared to all the uses water gems have historically been *actually used for* by experienced players. That SKC compares badly to Krakens is mostly evidence of just how bad SKC is.

Edit: I suppose now you're going to shift goalposts on me and require me to demonstrate old spells for another path of magic that are still viable... Well, go ahead, which path or EDM summon would you like me to handle next?

[Dimaz]

Squirreloid, I think you're wrong regarding Sea Kings. And I hope I can consider myself an experienced player.