Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[rdonj]

Originally Posted by NooBliss

2 Rdonj:
I stated my opinion that Shishi are too strong compared to current summons, particularily making mid-game death and blood summons obsolete. How does it mean that existing summons have to be made more expensive? I dont understand.

2 Graeme Dice:

>> This isn't really a problem. They are higher research level and more expensive. If >> they aren't at least as good as banelords, then nobody would bother using them.

Eh? They are just one level higher, and they are actually cheaper. Please consider that bane lords need further equipment to solo anything, while shishi need little to none. They arent 'at least as good as banelords' now, they outshine them without even trying.

.... Ok, maybe I just dont know everything about MP. Is there any other summon for 25 gems (including item cost) who can cloud trapeze and solo 50+ heavy cavalry or easily annihilate equipped undead/demonic thugs?

I was just replying to Dimaz

[Aethyr]

@ Noobliss: No, your questions are valid. However, I think one also has to consider that you need 4A to summon the shishi, and air, unlike ofther paths, has no buffs tha can get you from lv3 to lv4.

[Graeme Dice]

The banelord you described is outfitted to kill province defense and troops without mage support. He shouldn't expect to be able to survive against anything that's designed to kill tough targets. And really, nations like Caelum need something to do against cold and lightning immune thugs, and _something_ to spend air gems on that's worthwhile.

Killing 50 unsupported heavy cavalry is doable by just about any worthwhile thug chassis for similar or less cost than the Shishi you've outlined. A Skratti or Vanjarl for example. Death cannot be the only path that has useful summoned commanders, or else everybody needs to use death magic. This means that it is going to be a less powerful path, but that really seems to be the point of this mod - to bring the elemental paths into better balance.

[NooBliss]

Skratti and Vanjarl arent summoned. They are national commanders, who can kill decent armies with equipment. Please, name a summoned thug who can do the same for ~25 gems, including item cost.

Now, _something_ for Caelum doesnt have to be _that_ powerful. By the way, please tell me how would you outfit a banelord to fight Shishi. Because Shishi, you see, can kill both banelord and mortal armies without changing gear. As a harder task, please try to outfit a Raksharaja or Dakini to fight Shishi.

Death only has ony really really great SC chassis, afaik, and that's tartarians. So I kinda agree that its a good idea to give other endgame chassises. But Shishi isnt an endgame summon, its a mid-game summon. And Death has nothing comparable, not even remotely, because Bane lords will be eaten by Shishis. Literally.

Ah anyway. I can adjust to this mod, not a problem - taking a God with A4 is ok. Just... take a look at them, how they perform in the games to come. I have a feeling Shishi will be a wunderwaffe; employ them or lose to them.

[llamabeast]

Well if you are right, then clearly it would have to be changed. But so far noone else has reacted in that way to them, and I have heard no reports of them being successfully used in any of the MP games using this mod (and some reports of them being used unsuccessfully). A number of very experienced players seem content with their balance - I think I am happy to see how they get on for a bit. They are of course meant to be effective rather than mediocre things. I also always think that dom3 is full of "overpowered" things that balance out since there are so many of them. Anyway, I will keep an eye on future reactions to them.

Sorry not to write more, I'm using my phone.

[Squirrelloid]

I wouldn't counter Shishi with thugs. At MR 16 I'd blast them with mindhunts (they'd die pretty easily to pen+5 mindhunts, even with an AMA). And I'd use battlefield magic to kill them.

MR 16 is pretty weak sauce for a thug, so as long as you can make penetration boosters, I'd be tossing the following at them: Soul Slay, Enslave Mind, Charm, Control, Disintegrate, Blindness, Paralyze.

Not MR dependent:
You can tie them down with prison of fire, tangle vines, vine arrow, earth meld. You can sleep cloud them or use rigor mortis to make them rack up fatigue. You can blast them with evocations (banefire, magma eruption, gift of the heavens). You can cut their effectiveness in half with darkness. You can Drain Life them. I could probably go on - that's just off the top of my head.

[Graeme Dice]

Why would you try to use the specific things Shishi counter best, which is undead and demons to fight them? Use something that isn't that. Use actual armies, which have magic support from multiple commanders, and not raiding parties, which don't.

[zzcat]

Hmm, I forgot femaile shishi's bite deals extra damage to both undeads and demons.

I agree mind hunt may be the best way to deal with a shishi. But I think anti-thug thugs can be effective too. Considering its low damage output per hit(20, or 23 with gridle of might) and 16 MR, anyone with decent armor and a eye shield can blind it at turn 1 or 2, or you can just kill it with a troll king wielding moon blade. Shishis can neither fly nor cast returning as golems so it's not so hard to catch them.

@llamabeast: Unfortunately I omited the 2-headed forms yesterday and it seems the #firstshape bug applies to #2959 too. Anyway I have checked all Zmeys' code again and I'm pretty sure there is no other bug within it...

[Fantomen]

I'll be trying out shishis in MP in a few turns, I'm very curious about them. It's a super cool idea.

I wouldn't worry that it should make Bane lords obselete. It's a totally different kind of summon. And it's not like everyone will have A4 anyway. If it is too powerful is another thing, but I'm not convinced about that.

[Dimaz]

Well, Shishi effectively removes mid-game thugging with solo Raksharajas/Dakinis as a strategy (if available, of course). For lg Raksharajas have too few HP anyway and can be killed in many ways, but in mg trapezing solo-demon killers are their doom.