Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[tombom]

Gandalf Parker said:
Hmmm some of these comments are long drawn out discussions of what should be done, and probably would be done, IF it was agreed that anything was broken.

Every single person in this thread has agreed that Vanheim is overpowered, even the people arguing against a change.

[Edi]

Gandalf, with the exception of you and NT Jedi, there seems to be a consensus that Vanheim and Helheim are overpowered. Some of those in the consensus for some reason or another do not mind the current situation, but 90+% of the rest think it should be addressed. Sounds like agreement to me.

Edi

[Edi]

I should add that even many of the less experienced people who came into the thread skeptical of the issue have been changing their positions as soon as they started testing the issue and running the numbers in practice, which in my book is an even more powerful argument that there is indeed a problem.

Edi

[UninspiredName]

Um, I'm probably missing something, but would it take any kind of map commands whatsoever to refuse to put Vanheim in your game?

EDIT: And since the topic is beginning to veer to the Vampire Queen...

It seems to me, the real issue is that now, stuff that boosts a supercombatant like flying, regeneration, ethereal, summon allies, and immortality is being taken much more seriously than in Dom2, and Vampire Queen had so many of them. She still does, but it slammed her down to 50 points per path, dominion 1, (which seems to be a contradiction among other human, dominion 1 units) ethereality was nixed altogether, and what started out as a buffed human mage, a Frost Father more thematic for her paths, became the most expensive pretender in the game and lost a very valuable SC ability. If you look at the Lich (not so much Master Lich) and Ghost King, they both had a bit of what the VQ had, and they both got their cost jacked up corresponding to that 'bit'. Really, it seems to me, this whole thing is in retaliation to the SC craze of Dom2. It's not so much different from the Sphinx becoming truly immobile.

[Morkilus]

I know this will end up sounding like a "me too" post, but I agree there is a problem and it should be fixed in a patch. Getting a multiplayer community to agree to a mod is much more difficult than grabbing a mod from the subforum in order to whack the AI.

And please stop using arguments like "well, it's not just a MP game" and "ban Vanheim if you don't like it". If your arguments worked, you wouldn't have to repeat them word for word every time someone shoots them down. So my post isn't completely useless, I suggest some of the Amos mods from the mod forum for powerful, fun nations to try against the AI.

[Endoperez]

I agree in that Helhirdings are very good for the price. I'm not sure how good, exactly, they are. They are better than White Centaurs. I'm not sure if they are good enough to beat everything and everyone.

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I personally like having a range of nations, some of which are weaker than the average, and some of which are stronger. I like it that some nations are harder to play with than others. I like it that some require more delicacy, some require more subtlety, and some require more micromanagement.

I also like it that some require less thought, less subtlety, and less micromanagement. Sometimes you just want to play. Sometimes you want the other guy to have an advantage. Sometimes you want a newb to have a chance. Sometimes you want to play against an AI who has a chance of beating you.

I just like having the sheer breadth of the current game. If anything, instead of taking away, let's add to the game. More nations, more spells, more pretenders. Let's add a nation that is even more blunt and overpowered than Vanheim.

I'd argue, also, that even Vanheim isn't obviously overpowered--it takes a bit of thinking, familiarity with the game, some trial and error, and some puttering with the math to come up with the overkill Vanheim strategy. Or else reading a lot of posts.

I vote against the nerf bat.

Now, in keeping with the whole thread: Vans are for wussies. I taunt Van players. Your mother was a rabbit and your father smelled of elderberries. You Vans, ha on you! I Squish you! Ha ha! Yes! Take that!!

[DrPraetorious]

I don't think the glam positions are overpowered either. I would say that people who think there is a problem are more likely to post than those who do not, and that opinion is very much divided.

And please stop using arguments like "well, it's not just a MP game" and "ban Vanheim if you don't like it". If your arguments worked, you wouldn't have to repeat them word for word every time someone shoots them down.

While I agree that the first argument is vaccuous - I have not seen anyone "shoot it down," or even address it cogently.

As for the second argument - it is entirely sound, since there are a sizeable number of people who play MP and think the glamour positions are fine as they are. Strong, certainly - but so are many other positions. So, if your subgroup thinks the glamour nations are broken, just close them off. There's no reason to trouble everyone else who is enjoying the game as-is just fine.

[PDF]

On one side we have : take Vanheim with a W9F9 bless and produce Vans, disregard everything else, you'll expand lightning fast, then win 95% of fights vs any comparable-cost army, plus you can raid, hide, attack when and where you choose, play tricks to your leisure.
On the other we have : take another nation, consider carefully how to make an army that could be effective vs vans, how to script it, what spells to use, etc etc..
And maybe if Vanheim is cool he'll fight on your terms,and you'll win. Maybe

And that'll be "balanced" ? C'mon....

[Morkilus]

DrPraetorious said:

While I agree that the first argument is vaccuous - I have not seen anyone "shoot it down," or even address it cogently.

tibbs said:
Your reasoning doesn't make much sense really. Starcraft, Warcraft, Age of Empires, Dawn of War are all multiplayer and single player games yet each game was patched to fix multiplayer imbalance issues. I've never seen a game designed or patched using your reasoning.

Edi said:That's completely sidestepping the entire point and you know it. If the only way to avoid a problem is to voluntarily cut a whole nation out of the game, then that nation might as well not be included in the game at all and the bleating about a host being able to make a mod is a red herring. If mods are to be the answer, then they should be the method used by those who want an excessively powerful nation in SP. The reason for that is that it is much easier for one person to use a mod in a SP game than it is to coordinate mod version compatibility with up to 17 people in MP.

Saxon said:Is SP, which is all I play, it seems that most games end up with me having to knock out Vanheim at some point. Either I meet them early and have to kill them to live or I meet them late, where their early expansion leads them to have huge resources and they are a monster. Either way, pretty much every game comes down to me vs. Vanheim. That takes some replayablity out of the game.

Beorne said:
For me Dom3 (and Dom2) is only MP, I find exrtremely boring playing with AI, I'd prefere read a book. In MP s beautiful.
But we banned Vanheim (and Helheim), it is overly unbalanced and it has ruined our first MP game.
For me it is painful because it is way long my favored nation (along with the Tuathas, hoping they return soon ...), has a wonderful theme and it is very fascinating in general. But it is ovewrpowered, no way.
I think that the argument about people saying it is not overpowered are made by boys that easily win MP using Van and are very satisfied of this. I can't find any other reason to say "it is clearly unbalanced but I like it.".

Please go back and read the thread, and please point out this sizable portion of the MP community that think the 'heims and dual blesses are fine as is. They should have as much interest in the thread. I appreciate your contributions, but please don't attempt to dismiss everyone else's perfectly good arguments. They exist and are valid. Fixes to any game should be made to make people happy and have more fun, and especially should be prioritized for a multiplayer game.