what about the future?

[Fantomen]

Well, assuming it was a game and I was the developer, I'd sure as hell rather have 10000 people playing it than 1. So in that case 1.

But assuming I'm in it for the money and pure profit is the only value? Sure then 2, or...

...you also have to take into account the value of fame. Having a big title that many people play is a whole lot of money saved on free advertising next time I release something. And then those 50 people could help me supporting the company further, being friends, providing a wide slate of competence, contact network, internal feedback, idea generating, and in general enabling the business to grow and develop into something I could be proud of every day.

Nice rhetorical question. Is it fair? Are you in it just for the money? Is that why you're in the business of distributing niche TBS games?

Life is a bit like that choice isn't it? People choosing 2 are the ones speculating in land or currency, risk investment, weapon export, drugs, fast food chains and so on. Or just doing well paid jobs just for the money, or fail and do soulless ****jobs for the ones who succeeded.

People choosing 1 are ones who care. Nurses, NGO workers, artists, scientists, teachers and an endless row of others. Not the least indie game developers.

I'm an independent filmmaker, you can say I choose 1 every day. I hire loads of people to help me realize creative visions without even knowing if I'll break even. Is it worth it? Hell yeah!

Did that answer your question?

[13lackGu4rd]

I think you're a bit confused Fantomen.

Originally Posted by Fantomen

Well, assuming it was a game and I was the developer, I'd sure as hell rather have 10000 people playing it than 1. So in that case 2.

I thought you meant 1, cause 2 would be a single unit(hence a single player) costing 1mil$...

But assuming I'm in it for the money and pure profit is the only value? Sure then 1, or...

actually, in his example 2 would give the most pure profit, as you're saving the 50 salaries you pay in 1 to reach the same profit of 1mil$. but it's true that 1 gives a lot more potential income.

...you also have to take into account the value of fame. Having a big title that many people play is a whole lot of money saved on free advertising next time I release something. And then those 50 people could help me supporting the company further, being friends, providing a wide slate of competence, contact network, internal feedback, idea generating, and in general enabling the business to grow and develop into something I could be proud of every day.

sure, free advertisement is always nice, but that's not the main point. being proud of your business sort of contradicts what you're saying later, but it's an emotional reason not logical. now, whether you make decisions based on logic or ratio is entirely up to you(or well, any individual) but that's an entirely different subject.

Nice rhetorical question. Is it fair? Are you in it just for the money? Is that why you're in the business of distributing niche TBS games?

totally irrelevant to his example Imho. to be precise it's more about "the big score" vs being there over time, short term vs long term if you will.

Life is a bit like that choice isn't it? People choosing 1 are the ones speculating in land or currency, risk investment, weapon export, drugs, fast food chains and so on. Or just doing well paid jobs just for the money, or fail and do soulless ****jobs for the ones who succeeded.

I think you missed the point entirely. people who choose 1 are the people who made companies and corporations, what makes the modern world work... being a lazy bum or a mediocre(or worst) employee isn't in the discussion, he's talking about working alone or starting a company, not about being a salaryman or being independent...

People choosing 2 are ones who care. Nurses, NGO workers, artists, scientists, teachers and an endless row of others. Not the least indie game developers.

again, completely irrelevant to his example Imho.

I'm an independent filmmaker, you can say I choose 2 every day. I hire loads of people to help me realize creative visions without even knowing if I'll break even. Is it worth it? Hell yeah!

Did that answer your question?

the bold part means you chose 1 not 2, does it not...? and no, you probably didn't answer his question, I think you got confused by it.

[Fantomen]

So I accidentally switched the alternatives? Big deal.

I fixed it, makes sense now?

I think my answer is very relevant. I didn't get confused by the question but I refuse to fall down into that level of debate. What is actually irrelevant is asking rhetorical questions where you try to lure other debaters into a purified logic which doesn't account for even a fraction of the real context.

On one hand Shrapnel has reasons to set the prices they do, that's a fact. On the other hand lot's of people think dom3 is terribly overpriced for what you get, feeling that it's simply a lot of money to invest in a computer game. That's a fact too.

Shrapnel wants to make money, but the customer obviously don't care about that. The customer wants a lower price, but Shrapnel obviously don't care about that. They prefer fewer customers who pay more, if I'm understanding Tim right.

So we have two angles of debate who doesn't give a **** about each others arguments. It's the worst possible climate of discussion, and indeed the amount of hostility and chest thumping fill the air with fumes of testosterone.

At least the representatives of Shrapnel are consequent in their approach to critics and perceived dissidents of the community, arrogant and repressive.

[13lackGu4rd]

no, you didn't just switch the alternatives, you were talking about completely different things... you were mainly talking about being a salaryman vs an independent, he was talking about working as an individual or starting a company(of more than a 1 man show that is). you were trying to light up 1 of the options as positive and the other as negative, when it's not about good vs bad at all, it's merely about making logical vs emotional decisions.

the people who would choose 2 in his example are the people who feel sentimental value for their work, don't trust others' work but only their own, etc. well, I guess there are also those who can't manage other people yet still wish to remain independent, hence they end up working alone, or those that are just looking for the big score than moving onto the next gamble. you know, people who like living on the edge(economically speaking, not physically as in life or death). but neither of these groups form the majority of any modern society. so for most people, who are in the position to actually make the choice between those 2 alternatives, the clear answer would be 1.

[Fantomen]

Am I obliged to limit my response to a model of inscrutable logic? Just because someone is throwing rhetoric questions around?

And Tim asked if you'd rather sell 1 expensive unit yourself or many units with more effort. That question spurs a lot more than just individual vs. company. Or logic vs. emotion. That's also profit vs. availability and customer friendliness. Or in other words, what is it worth to have an audience?

Besides, you don't ask rhetorical question because you want an answer, so why give one? Better to use the opportunity to really say something you think has meaning.

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks

Let me ask one question. If you were starting a business and you were told that you could either:

1) sell 100,000 units of your product at $10.00 each (Gross $1,000,000) but you would have to hire 50 people to support that effort or

2) you could sell 1 unit of your product at $1,000,000 and you wouldn't have to hire anyone, you could do all the work yourself,

which would you do?

This is a totally false dichotomy for so many reasons, and that fact should be patently obvious. Such as

-the nature of things that sell for $10 is totally different than the nature of things that sell for $1mil. Assuming you were starting a business with a product in mind (ie, you're sensible), you don't have a choice.

-There's no way it takes 50 people to sell 100,000 of anything digital. The top watched youtube video has 253 million views. Now, granted, it took a production team to make it (but that's your 1 unit you're making in the other case too - people needed to make it are set before you start moving product), but it only took a single person to upload it to youtube.

Now, i grant its not a sold product, but it only takes one person to make a webpage and write a little code to e-mail a game key automatically with game purchase, or whatever code you feel like writing to handle digital distribution of a game. It probably took more people than that to create the game. Heck, that code already exists.

So, necessary costs to selling a game in this day and age of digital distribution:
-game development
-bandwidth
-advertising

Where are these 50 people getting involved in any way that's germain to your question and this topic? The actual process of selling the game? Requires like an hour or two of one person's time to write the necessary code, assuming you want to do so from scratch.

I could go on, but its obvious the question is pointless. Hypotheticals that will never occur aren't relevant.

------------
Regarding depth vs. graphics. I don't see why there can't be both. I mean, a dom4 that was simply code-cleaning and graphics overhaul would be worthwhile. And I don't even care about graphics personally, but I do think there would be a positive impact on the size of the community because lots of people do.

[Foodstamp]

What's the most watched youtube video?

[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Foodstamp

What's the most watched youtube video?

Some music video by Bieber.

Here's the top 10 of all time as of a month ago:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0430123849.htm

[Foodstamp]

We should build a turtle fence.

[Tim Brooks]

Originally Posted by Tim Brooks

Let me ask one question. If you were starting a business and you were told that you could either:

1) sell 100,000 units of your product at $10.00 each (Gross $1,000,000) but you would have to hire 50 people to support that effort or

2) you could sell 1 unit of your product at $1,000,000 and you wouldn't have to hire anyone, you could do all the work yourself,

which would you do?

This is a hypthetical. It is actually a question asked on one of my business course tests in college.

According to the professor, the correct answer is: You do not have enough information to answer this question.

My point: These conversations about what price we should charge, how many more sales we would get, how successful the game would be if we did x, y, or z, are not relevant. You don't have the information to make the call. They may be fun for you and go ahead, have the conversation, but what do you actually know about our business? What was our bestselling game of all time? What was its price point? How many units did we sell? How much profit did we earn? In what year did we earn the most income? How much income? What was our most profitable year? Did we sell more units of Dominions 3 last year than we did the year before? Are we on track to sell more this year than last year? How many games have we dropped the price on? What did that do to our sales for that game? How many people bought the game at the new price point that never would have at its original price? How large is the TBS game market? Is it growing or shrinking? By what percentage did it shrink/grow last year? What is the cost to us of finding out that information? What is the average cost of a customer support ticket? How many support tickets do we process in a year, month, day? What is the cost of maintaining these forums? How many spammers do we get to these forums each day? What is the cost of keeping those spammers out of here? What is the cost of keeping a database driven server up and running? How many times a day do we get crash warnings on our servers? How many hours do we spend keeping the servers running in a year?

I have the answers to all of those questions and many, many more. I also have the answer to questions you haven't even considered when it comes to pricing and what that can ultimately do to your image... and your costs. At what price point does the general public, not the niche gamer, buy your product(s), hate them, and then go around the internet bad mouthing your game(s)? How many more support requests do you get as the price of the game drops (because you now sell games to people who really don't get it)? What is the cost of these extra support requests?

So go ahead tell us how terrible we are. We're pretty used to it. But pardon me if I don't take the conversation all that seriously.