Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?

[B0rsuk]

PDF said:
On one side we have : take Vanheim with a W9F9 bless and produce Vans, disregard everything else, you'll expand lightning fast, then win 95% of fights vs any comparable-cost army, plus you can raid, hide, attack when and where you choose, play tricks to your leisure.
On the other we have : take another nation, consider carefully how to make an army that could be effective vs vans, how to script it, what spells to use, etc etc..
And maybe if Vanheim is cool he'll fight on your terms,and you'll win. Maybe

And that'll be "balanced" ? C'mon....

...and then a neighbor notices you have 50 charriots(monoculture), and sends 1 niefel giant and kills them all.

To anyone who used the acronym SP in this topic:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...?Number=479064

[Gandalf Parker]

Wouldnt a Victory Point game on a medium map play out quite differently? I admit that I have very little experince with the small map (10 prov or less per player) blitz-type games.

[UninspiredName]

Since Victory Point games are much more reliant on quick expansion, I'd say Vanehim might actually have more of an advantage there.

[Valandil]

How does helheim do in MP eg. turn 40?
What nations (EA) will beat helheim consistently.Can anyone quantify a 'good player'? Who is the best?

These questions, if answered, would go a long way towards finding a solution.

My opinion:
Helheim F9 W9 is probably stronger than it 'should be'. I would argue that anything that is clearly imbalanced should be restored to a state in balance with other nations. I would do this by adding counters to glamour/F9 W9 (Dispel illusions? Unbless?). I vote in favour of balance and against nerfing.

While I'm at it, I quote a famous objection to the "women against rape" campaign: "are there any women FOR rape?"

[Uh-Nu-Buh]

I'm not sure this thread is profitable any more. People are letting their emotions get the better of them, I'm afraid. Two points of view, both valid. Neither are going to agree. Big deal, so what, jeeze. Live with it.

As for you, Gandalf Parker, you're going in my killfile. You are over the top. Too angry by far. This is just a game. Your extremist solutions are shocking. Yes, shocking.

[Ozymandias]

Just to clarify a few things, EA Vanheim has capitol only sacreds that aren't nearly as good a chassis as Van or Helhirdling. Their defense is a respectable 12 before they berserk, but only 7 after. They cost three times as much as elite infantry of other nations. I don't believe that EA Vanheim has sacreds of excessive power.

Helheim and MA Vanheim are different. Van and Helhirdlings both have stock defense of 19. Oiorpata are the next closest sacred with 18 defense. White Centaurs, Equite of the Sacred Shroud, Tiger Riders, Wind Riders, Androphags, and Red Guard all have defense 17. Vanir cavalry have very high defense, particularly with a water blessing. This means that they are very rarely hit in melee, which provides normal troops very few chances to remove their mirror images. All of the previously listed sacred cavalry become very survivable in hand to hand with a water bless; Vanir cavalry have only a small advantage, but it is magnified by their mirror image. Also it is worth noting that of all the sacreds listed above, only Van are not capitol only.

In addition to their excellent tactical attributes (helhirdlings are arguably the very best national troop of any era; van are only slightly worse) they also have superior strategic abilities. The standard MA Vanheim army of a Vanjarl and a half dozen Van is sailing, glamorous, and map move 3. Helheim loses sailing on their Vanjarls, but they have flying Disr and Valkyrie forces to help compensate. One thing that all of the people who have rightly said that Vanir armies are beatable have neglected to mention is that the Vanir nations get to pick their battles. Even if they are beatable by large carefully scripted armies, they are more mobile then those armies and can easily bypass them. EA Abysia's sacreds are very powerful, but they don't appear all through your empire attacking wherever you are weak because they have to move in a visible, ploddingly slow group.

Finally the blesses. Water 9, fire 9 gets mentioned a lot on this thread, and personally I believe that water is the most powerful bless available to high defense sacreds. Fire is the best bless which provides magic weapons. Death and earth blesses are both helpful to casters as well as melee troops, and nature blesses are strong in direct proportion to the hit points of the sacred units, but for nations with basically human hit point sacreds suitable for combat fire 9 water 9 pretenders will be chosen often. I would prefer for the less optimal blesses to be made more useful rather then nerfing the big two. Making the earth blessings armor bonus not contingent on armor, making the save for death weapons at -4, not limiting the magic resistance bonus from an astral bless to 18, and removing the save for blood curse would all be good starts. I'm not sure what a good improvement for the air bless would be, but it needs help too.

[curtadams]

In terms of arguments that the Heims are not overpowered -
So far we have two tracks attempted, neither very successfully.

Some have posted strategies for particular nations to beat the Heims. I've seen Abysia, Niefelheim, C'tis Miasma, Arcosephale (with a very complex idea), and elephant users. That's not enough nations and not enough testing although most are plausible. There would also need to be some counters tested - e.g. elephants are very vulnerable to archers so an archer/Van combo might allow the Heims to deal with that (their defense alone might be enough - failed tramples don't kill very effectively and those easily routed elephants are very painful to the owner)

There was also a claim that hobbit chaff can thrash the Heims. That's a legitimate idea, although you can't always find hobbits, and that also needs some testing. I'm also majorly unimpressed with hobbit meleers - there's an issue with wasted costs.

In terms of patching I have a general principle and two ideas.

First, I think an "emergency patch" should be conservative. Overnerfing is hard to reverse. The specific ideas:

1) weaken glamour so that if the *mirror image* takes a hit it goes poof. Obviously a programming change but it would get rid of the disturbing synergy between mirror images and hard-to-hurt units while still leaving it useful. Thick missle fire would pretty much fry mirrors but the mirrors would still waste a fair number of shots. In addition to balance benefits, this is "logical" to most people.

2) Raise the costs of the sacred units in view of their double-bless benefit. They would no longer have much use otherwise but that's OK - the Heims still have very strong other units. IMO Vanheim in particular seems to have really strong units in general based on how much damage they do me but it doesn't seem a runaway problem.

I'm not sure about the best approach but frankly, def 24 armored units are just too good for the early game. They are excellent in comparison even to fairly high-level summoned troops like lamia, naiads, and devils. If "summoned double-blessed van troops" were a fairly high-level spell it would still be a major target of research, probably ahead of lamias, and that's saying something.

[FrankTrollman]

In terms of arguments that the Heims are not overpowered -
So far we have two tracks attempted, neither very successfully.

In what way is it not successful. The initial claim is that a double blessed heim strategy cannot be beaten. I've beaten it, therefore that's an iron-clad argument to the contrary.

The burden of proof is on the people claiming imbalance - not the other way around. The people who are claiming that Vanheim is overpowered are saying that they lost badly and don't see what they could have done differently. That's anecdotal evidence at best. One could conclude from that anecdote that either:

1. Vanheim is overpowered.
2. The faction they were playing is underpowered.
3. The player of vanheim in the example was really good.
4. The player complaining about Vanheim isn't good.
5. Vanheim plays differently than other nations and that repeating standard tactics with or against them is ineffective.

Those are all valid conclusions. But a lot of people are saying "Vanheim is unstoppable!" as if that conclusion was foregone. Well, I've never lost to Vanheim in any era with any nation in multiplayer or single player. So I theorize that one of the other options may be what you're actually looking at.

A strategy that loses badly to Arcocephalian Chariot Archers is hardly "unbeatable" - simply "weird and extreme". Ashen Fields isn't overpowered because people have to fight it with a heavy force of archers and priests - that's just how it works.

The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal. But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

-Frank

[Twan]

weaken glamour so that if the *mirror image* takes a hit it goes poof.

Replacing glamour by twist fate + normal stealth is probably doable in a mod and would be a good fix IMO.

[Edi]

FrankTrollman said:
In what way is it not successful. The initial claim is that a double blessed heim strategy cannot be beaten. I've beaten it, therefore that's an iron-clad argument to the contrary.

That there seems to be nothing but a strawman of the actual argument put forth, namely that the Van units are overpowered. I didn't see anyone claiming they were unbeatable, but that they are overpowered. That's with the assumption of current costs and abilities.

FrankTrollman said:
The burden of proof is on the people claiming imbalance - not the other way around.

Yes. More on that shortly.

FrankTrollman said:
The people who are claiming that Vanheim is overpowered are saying that they lost badly and don't see what they could have done differently. That's anecdotal evidence at best. One could conclude from that anecdote that either:

1. Vanheim is overpowered.
2. The faction they were playing is underpowered.
3. The player of vanheim in the example was really good.
4. The player complaining about Vanheim isn't good.
5. Vanheim plays differently than other nations and that repeating standard tactics with or against them is ineffective.

By the same token, your ability to beat Vanheim is just as anecdotal and cannot be used as evidence for any kind of larger trend. However, when there is direct testimony from a lot of people who are experienced players that the Van and Helheim units are a problem for the reasons listed because they skew games in several ways without the player using them really sacrificing anything, I'm far more likely to take that aggregate testimony as valid than someone like yourself coming out of the woodwork and just dismissing it with a handwave. I know Graeme Dice, Cainehill, Huzurdadi and some of the others here well enough to know that they can beat Vanheim or Helheim in MP, so I don't see where this accusation of incompetence that you're bandying about with that list of yours is coming from.

You're also ignoring what happened when the new people started running set-piece tests to get their own numbers. Not all of them changed their minds or did so immediately, but there was a marked drop-off of the dismissive replies at that point and even some reversals of opinion.

FrankTrollman said:
Those are all valid conclusions. But a lot of people are saying "Vanheim is unstoppable!" as if that conclusion was foregone. Well, I've never lost to Vanheim in any era with any nation in multiplayer or single player. So I theorize that one of the other options may be what you're actually looking at.

So, it's back to more anecdotal evidence (yours, this time) coupled with a strawman argument (since I at least haven't seen anyone saying Vanheim to be unstoppable, just more powerful than it should be).

FrankTrollman said:
The Vanir are virtually immune to sword attacks. That's a big deal.

Yes, and what you neglect to mention is that the same mechanism that makes them nearly immune to sword attacks also makes them nearly immune to all other forms of physical attack as well and leaves massed mages and powerful battle magic (which takes a long time to get in the kind of numbers we're talking about) as about the only brute force counter. Everything else requires either a ridiculous ratio of units from a cost comparison analysis and/or intricate strategies that are easy to counter and will only work if the Van player does what you want him to do instead.

FrankTrollman said:
But it's not an insurmountable deal.Every nation can mount an offensive that is not based on melee attacks that have a chance of missing. Area attacks, trampling, battlefield enchantments and more are all within the realm of possibility. The specific tactics to be employed will of course vary nation to nation, but you can put up a defense against the Vanir.

No, not insurmountable, but did you actually bother reading the posts in the thread where these issues were discussed in more detail?

FrankTrollman said:
And if you aren't tailoring your troop setups to your opposition, you should lose. Really, the fact that it requires specific planning on your part to win is not a flaw in the game.

-Frank

Yes, generally speaking that is true. But when the situation is such that you generally have to do everything right with complex strategies while your opponent has far more room to make mistakes and all other things being equal, then it bears at least investigating, not an outright dismissal.

Edi