The FASTBOAT Patch page.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Pic supplement #1 for the 2017/2018 Campaign

We've had a few of those, I even managed to slip into the bed undetected, how do I know this? When I did wake up, I wasn't asked the dreaded question "So what time did you come to bed this morning?". For you younger folks if you are asked this, you might be able to shave a few minutes off your answer but, know you're busted!!

Alright one thing I do know about Don was he really likes making Icons and updating pictures when he can. Regarding Icons I'll leave that to him and the several others of you who have the talent to do that. But I like the picture "work" myself as well I feel the equipment and those using them, should be shown in their "working" environment and by nationality if it allows. I also like movement in the pictures I've submitted over the years, because that's what the game is about movement constantly forward using all the compass bearings (Some knew that was coming!) and not "static displays" if it can be avoided. Those are what you find in museums etc.

Alright here are the first of my submissions as a supplement to my Patch Post in order of submission:

A1. Embraer A-1M AMX The left one being my favorite and titled as such for context. These I know are the A-1M AMX, there aren't many pictures available of the newer type and you can tell the older ones apart by the A1 on the tail also, where these pictures are located within the below ref as well in the A-1M AMX section.
https://spark.adobe.com/page/LzMQV/


C1. Brazil/UNIT 153/F-5EM// This next for the curious is to simply show what I was talking about concerning the nose cone configuration of this as noted. You'll see the 20mm cannon located on the PORT SIDE on the STBD SIDE I think that to be either a cooling intake for the air/ground attack radar or a weather condition sensor for the FCS much as are used on the more modern tanks these days for the same purpose.


C2. Israel/UNITS 308-311/A-4E/F/H/N to include “AYIT” at end of name/See A1//. Here is just an FYI A-4 AYIT configuration chart for these planes. Due the picture limitations I'll post pictures for UNITS 308-310 immediately after this is posted, two of them are from IAF files from the YOM KUPPOR War as annotated.


All others up to this point had pictures already submitted where needed.

Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

On the list...........

[DRG]

I added the Chengdu J-20 to the game 6/118.....we can work out exact details later

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I'm up for it. For "GP" FYI, I started the Jets and Planes...Thread 7yrs ago this month. Concerning the J-20 I reported on it when it first showed, while then SECDEF was in China and they did their famous test flight while he was there and beyond.
On Pages 1-3 I posted stories on it 7 times in Posts #3, #9, #10, #16, #19, #20 and #26. Taking into account my mind hasn't changed too much concerning the J-20 from those early Posts.

Before I express that impression, let me start by saying that Russia has backed off their claim that the T-50/PAK FA is a 5th GEN Fighter. That puts it in the class as a 4th GEN+/or+++ where the current GRIPENS are covered in both "+" categories. This is a huge concession by the Russians. And Russian has been building quality fighters for decades now. Where China is concerned they're fairly new players in the field. I can't dismiss the comparison and it'll have some impact on my thinking.

That being said, I don't play favorites out here and anyone who've followed my discussions concerning the F-35 in general know this. So right at this moment and from what I've seen, I think the J-20 TECHNICALLY sits as if you will, as a 3rd GEN ++ (FROM MY PERSPECTIVE ONLY.) fighter.

Please note for the record in the refs out there, those "+ signs" are ONLY used for 4th GEN fighters.

And it's been a while since I've looked in on the fighter so I'll gladly put the spotlight back on the J-20 and see what's changed since JAN 2011.

For now I believe that is a valid start date for the J-20. I'd be curious to see what they've learned since I first looked in on it. This stuff is right up my alley!

And I know exactly the first place to start looking at this from.

Regards,
Pat

[Suhiir]

Yeah, I love how the armchair experts are so positive what the F-35s capabilities and limitations are when no out outside the manufacturer and the rather small portion of the military that actually flies and maintains them has any real knowledge.

But then what else is new.

I have no doubt you find what the "experts" have to say about the capabilities of American subs just as amusing.

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

J-20 Status...

I was going to end this post with the following, however, I feel it needs to start this conversation instead of ending it. So just because it says a jet is STEALTHY does not mean it's a 5th GEN or even a 4th GEN fighter. As I pointed out concerning the IAF A-4 AYIT in my last Patch submission, the simple act of extending the engine exhaust nozzles to reduce it's heat signature by definition makes that plane more stealthy, which again greatly reduced it's losses to IR missiles. Now here's where I'm at concerning the J-20 shofar and where it has lead me as well.

I'm not ready to provide numbers yet. I will concede that the Chinese J-20 fighter is better than an upper tier 3rd GEN fighter (As I thought she was when I first posted on this fighter years ago.) and I'm on the cusp of saying she's a low to mid tier 4th GEN fighter.

I'm still not convinced at this point and time that the J-20 is a 5th GEN fighter. I have provided one of the refs I've looked at to this point. What immediately got my attention was the rear of the plane around the engines in the pictures. They are just screaming "you can shoot me down now", which would be the case as it flies past a SAM site or with a fighter on it's tail.
https://fightersweep.com/6230/analys...hinese-raptor/

The other issue is, the J-20 might STRICKLY just be used as a deep penetration interceptor used to take down aircraft like the P-8 POSIDEAN, AWACS, BOMBERS etc. etc. Though it should be able to fight it's way in and out.

Dogfighting for the J-20 might be an issue to some degree though, it'll be armed with some very effective long and short range Air-to-Air missiles that could to a small degree negate some of those disadvantages.

Though China acquired some plans (Airframe design and some electronics.) of the F-35, it is felt that the key electronics systems haven't been compromised along with the stealth "paint" and other advanced design factors.

Any finally...
Oh I don't doubt I probably missed this in the game manual after three try's in my weary post work environment, so does...

EW for Jets/Planes, is stealth factored into those numbers already, or is that rating based solely on it's electronics and defensive capabilities?

If stealth is factored in, at what % of the whole is used? By example EW 20.

What has become VERY CLEAR is how good the F-22 RAPTOR really is from my research so far. Nothing comes close, the gaps and systems the following abstract talks about have been taken care of. The IRST system and others have been added (Also the F/A-18E/F SUPER HORNET will have it. IRST that is.) and I've posted on those improvements for years now to the point we MIGHT need to have an improved version.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-300309-1.html

From the above...Is the F-15SE better then we think in the game now? I personally have felt this version of the F-15 certainly was a low to mid level 4th GEN Fighter/Bomber and the only one fitting that description except for possibly the Russian SU-35BM data posted after the excerpt. The embolden is mine.

"[3] Boeing F-15SE ‘Silent Eagle’. This low-signature version of the F-15 Eagle was assessed during the compilation of this NOTAM. Its radar cross section, while claimed to be comparable to the export configuration of the F-35 (This again goes to my long held point out here that we're not in the business of giving up our secrets. This is why I close to figuring out what the export version of the AH-64E should look like.) from nose-on is likely to be substantially inferior from other aspects. Its infrared signature will be similar to the standard F-15 Eagle. Thus, the PAK-FA using radar will detect the Silent Eagle at a range sufficient to launch BVR missiles and at similar or greater ranges to the F-35 for infrared-based engagements. Flying wide sweeps and distributing sensor detections as is done for the legacy Sukhois will enhance radar detections and enable IRST ranging. The advantage the F-15SE Silent Eagle has over the F-35 JSF is that it has the aerodynamic performance and fuel reserves to egress from a dangerous air combat engagement."
https://www.milavia.net/aircraft/su-35/su-35.htm

So as you can see this issue with the J-20 had no option but to head into the above issues thus far noted.

Also following the J-31 however it looks to have some of the same issues as the J-20.

For comparison...


Regards,
Pat

[DRG]

Andy would be able to answer this in more detail but the EW numbers are basically the ability to deal with the EW value of SAM's......if your aircraft has a lessor EW value than the missile being fired at it then the missile has the advantage...if the aircraft EW is higher than the SAM that's being fired at it then the aircraft has a better chance of fending off the missile.

Right now based on all the info I've seen I've given the Chengdu J-20 an EW of 10



agreed it **appears** to be aimed at LR strikes of support assets and for that it only needs to be stealthy heading right at you. It has 8 HP's and that's why it has 8 " things that go boom"......IGNORE THE COST SHOWN.....I don't run the cost calc until just before the patch ships

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Alright had a day of it today, looking no better tomorrow w/a 0745 start. OK, your last post was very helpful and puts things into perspective. I need "to shop" the other key planes I've mentioned already. Focusing more on data type refs than equipment ones. As I mentioned most of this is connected (EW/VISION).

All I need to know is what is my "absolute drop date" to finish this off?

And you know, I fully understand that Andy and yourself are "up against it" certainly by this point.

Given the above date I'll do my absolute best. Early thinking is bumping the J-20 to EW 12. Also going to take a hard look at the F-22 because and this is important, that jet IS the "Gold Standard" for attack aircraft, and will be until and beyond the end of this game as it stands and RL. Game wise to include final Patch work for 2025/2026.

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

Meant this as an edit to my last. In a simple presentation that Don can even appreciate I give you...

Syria...

The Russians have their current best systems there...
https://sputniknews.com/military/201...defense-syria/

We have our best plane there...
https://www.military.com/daily-news/...-fighting.html

And some have reported by the use of ELINT that the Russians haven't been able to "paint" them...
http://www.airforcemag.com/MagazineA...16/0316f22.pdf
https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...1a06p_0001.htm

And it's also important to remember that the F-22 at this time is the only known fighter to have all around stealth capabilities. All others including the F-35 have frontal only or VERY minimalist side qualities also included. This to include the SU-35 as already mentioned in a previous post here. The PAK-FA/T-50 will fall into this category as mentioned above.

Again this to support my last Post.

Alright 4am here the rack is calling and thank God for "Blue Light" reduction!!

Regards,
Pat

[FASTBOAT TOUGH]

I have to wonder if Don had an alternate motive in having me look into the J-20? I was surprised by some things I saw when reviewing a cross section of fighters and a small grouping of the more advanced bombers in the game.

Do you want to know why the F-22 is the best plane out there and by some considered the only true 5th GEN Fight? The answer is simple-$100 million dollar difference between the next most expensive fighter in the world the F-35B @ ~150 million per unit. Trust me the USAF wishes now that they hadn't backed away from the fighter when they still had a chance to build them for less at the time. They don't have enough of them and only recently (Last hand full of years.) started to ensure that a full logistics supply chain has been reestablished for spare parts.

Here's what I found by JET/EW/TI/GSR which are the key factors relative to the topic and game. But first...
1. CHANGE/USA/UNIT 921/F-35A/EW 12//This would match the others grouped with it (Currently at EW 9) and I believe is the only one I could find with this difference.

2. The J-20 for now is good as is.

3. I will demonstrate what makes a true 5TH GEN Fighter in more detail later. But did you know...

A. From the sources I could find, here are the estimated (Like the X-Files the truth is out there somewhere, but we'll never know it as it's so highly classified.) Radar Cross Sections (RCS) for the F-22 = 0.0001m2/F-35 = 0.001m2/PAK FA/T-50 = 0.4m2. Not the only reason it's not really a 5th GEN Fighter but, not to take my word for it, Here's what India thinks about it. And if you remember I've brought this up before. The big difference is they haven't changed their minds about it as this article is from yesterday. If you read this carefully you might be surprised by who wanted it more on the "stealth" side and who backed away from it. But if you read my previous Posts on the topic, you'll already know the answer.
https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/indi...ad-to-nowhere/

B. One of the other key factors that define a 5th GEN Fighter is it's ability to "Super Cruise". These are very high efficacy engines that allow the F-22 to fly on after burner for much longer period of time. The advantages should be obvious to you from several offensive and defensive reasons. More importantly it also greatly reduces the jets IR signature.

Do you know what other jets do share this capability? Well it's not the F-35 (They tried the F-22 engines on the F-35, well it didn't go well. The engines tore themselves up over time leading to one F-35 to crash. The pilot ejected as I understand it.) , PAF FA or J-20.

Here you go the GRIPEN, EUROFIGHTER and TYPHOON.

So we might need a small "pyridine shift" in how we treat these fighters in regards to EW.

I'm Willing to give this a shot limiting myself primarily were it concerns the 4th GEN + and up aircraft. I simply don't see a need to fix any prior GEN aircraft because of the broad sampling I took of them (Including 4th GEN ones.), I really feel they look good.

What I see is a tiered number system (Block/Spread) concerning EW ratings of these planes. Each Block would cover 5th GEN 16-18/4TH GEN++ 14-16/4th GEN+ 12-14/4th GEN 10-12// These numbers might shift to the left by 1 or 2 but, that's where my heads at now. I'm looking at all aspects of RL EW factors w/o my head exploding.

I have already identified 24 candidates for the project.

Are Andy and you willing to go to EW 18 for the F-22 and B-2?

THIS IS NOT FOR THE UPCOMING PATCH!! If you give me the green light I'll continue my work here.

I leave with a little Fighter GEN 101. Not too old and still good FYI stuff...




I shot expert again earlier today so, I intend to enjoy the rest of this "bonus" evening at home with CINCLANTHOME.

Regards,
Pat