Endgame Diversity Mod - v1.2 released

[Squirrelloid]

See, I see national commanders that strictly dominate just about any summons up until tartarians or elemental royalty to be a serious balance problem, because it means you can get something better for gold than other nations can get with gems.

[Calahan]

Originally Posted by Squirrelloid

See, I see national commanders that strictly dominate just about any summons up until tartarians or elemental royalty to be a serious balance problem, because it means you can get something better for gold than other nations can get with gems.

For me it depends entirely on the nation. As nations such as EA Caelum or EA Atlantis for example, only has its great capital only commanders, the rest of the nations arsenal is pretty much sub-par and forgettable. Or indeed laughable.

So if you allow any other nation in the game to simply by-pass/replicate these national uber cap commander advantages via (too) cheaply priced summons. (especially if they're early/mid game summons. Say levels 4-6) Then at least IMO, you may well as a consequence be weakening several nations by taking away their only real advantage over other nations. While at the same time those 'other nations' may easily still get to keep all their trump cards that can't be replicated easily. Or even replicated at all. Uber bless units, blood access, high pathed Death/Astral mages etc.

If you're looking for more balance between nations, then how about modding a spell that summons 10 top rate scared units for 10 gems of any type, so as to counter the likes of Mictlan and Lanka etc. Or 10 sacred giants for 10 gems. And while you're at it, easy access to blood hunters at Conj1 from any magic path


I often think the quest to find perfect balance between all nations is a foolish one, as there are just too many nations and too many possible combinations in the game. This is not a game like Dune 2 with just 3 nations. So as long as mods like CBM continue to attempt to fix broken things (like never used summons, nerf obviously OP nations like Hinnom, help obviously UP nations like EA/MA Agartha etc), then I think it's doing a great job. But if it goes too far down the line of attempting to balance all nations by making sudden substantial changes to the game, then I think it might have taken too big a step in the wrong direction. Everyone has their own opinion on this of course

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by Calahan

The Eagle King is not a very good example IMO, as Eagle Kings are one of the best recruitable commanders in the game. It's the same as saying you expect a 30/40 gem mid-game summon to be better than a Nief Jarl or Ashdod Adon etc. And Eagle Kings are almost certain to need a shield for raiding.

Considering the relative availability of gems and gold under default settings, I'd expect a 400-500 gold commander should be evenly matched by about a 10 gem summon for proper balance.

[Debaser8]

Ten gems being equivalent to 500 gold commanders would mean a repricing of all existing summons though, which would majorly effect balance and game play, for good or ill.

[Zeldor]

Well, standard price in MP is 20-30 gold per gem, if there are any trades happening.

Shishis should be mobile, so they need A2. They are not so great really. Their attacks are good only against undead and demons really. And how many thugs like that do you have? Who except Lanka? Or some blood summons, which are probably way underpriced [really, Dakini for 55B? if we want to make Shishis more expensive, Dakinis should cost 100B or more]. Currently Shishi cannot even touch properly geared and scripted thug [mistform + mirror image + ethereality + luck + other staff]. They cannot even reliably get through fear+awe and many many other stuff. They need gear to survive frost brand. And they have not many means to survive anyt other thug gear. And they cannot take hits well. And they are totally useless against normal armies.

[NooBliss]

Shishi cannot touch a properly geared thug? Zeldor, I understand that I dont know much about all this stuff etc, but when I tried equipping Dakinis and Raksharajas, they were almost insta-killed by the Shishi. Actually, nearly all mid-game summoned thugs I could think about were helpless against Shishi.

Could you please specify, what items do Raksharajas and Dakini need to kill a semi-naked Shishi?

Also, Shishi have morale 30. I guess you didnt give a proper thought to your remark about them not being able to hit awe/fear protected thugs, did you. Same goes for etherealty, as all 6 attacks are magical. Or did Llama change Shishi somehow, buffing them in the last version of this mod?

[rdonj]

Yes, actually he did. Read the first post. They didn't used to have magical attacks for one thing.

[Wrana]

Another possibility for Shshs fix would be to give them Encumbrance 1-2 (as many other magic beings, including elemental Royalty) instead of 0.

[ano]

All elemental kings\queens have enc 0?

[NooBliss]

They already have enc. 1, at least in the version I've downloaded. It's not a solution because simple girdle of might gives them enough reinvigoration while buffing their damage at the same time. With 3 misc slots, girdle of might is a no-brainer for Shishi. (Against medium amounts of PD or single thugs, they dont even need it because they are damn fast killers).
To be honest, I'm not sure they actually 'need' quickness or Air magic. Did Llama intend to create a summon that will automatically kill all other mid-game thugs via cloud trapezing, or just something reasonably good for 15 air gems?

My idea is to strip them of their commander status, maybe giving them flight to compensate. And make them get Air 2 after player casts Gift of reason on them, a-la tartarians.
Or just strip them of magic and give them flight instead.
Or strip them of quickness, since all their attacks are magical now.

A good summon doesn't have to be insanely good.