Frustration (balance)

[Suicide Junkie]

quote:

---

The APBs and the WMG have identical max ranges as max tech. At max range, the APB is *barely* outdamaged by the wave-motion, while at minimum range the anti-proton beam does much more damage. And you can fit two APBs for every WMG!

---

I believe that the whole WMG crappiness is due to a copying error from SE3, just like the Shield Regenerator V bug, which was just recently officially fixed.
In SE3, WMG's did 14 damage at range 8, and were size 7 spaces.
In SE4, WMG's do 140 damage, size 70, range 8.
All the other weapons got a similar treatment, BUT, all of the other weapons got about a 2 space range increase, while the WMG was neglected completely.
In P&N, I've given WMGs range 9,10 & 11 at the three levels.

[mac5732]

It might be just me, I was so used to fiting off ftrs prior to 1.49, I used to see 100+ ftrs at a time, now its been rare. But I have been tinkering with editing some of the starting races, (not Modding but using original edits) plus those generated by computer, I just wonder if that has something to do with it. Current game have all the nasties except crystals and phong but only seen 1 CV with no ftrs. (16 total races + me),Past turn 1000, game almost won now, no CV's, same in the game prior in regards to CV's and ftrs???? hmmmmm I'll have to see what my next game shows. strange

just some ideas mac

[Phoenix-D]

"WMG loses when compared to APB when all the other ship components are same. But if WMG ship has more movement points than APB ship it can stay out of range when it is reloading its weapons."

The problem with that both these ships were going at the maximum speed (non-Propulsion experts) allowed in standard SE4. No way to make the WMG ship faster.. and in my experience at least people tend to make a ship size go as fast as it can go. So the only way would be to stick to Battlecruisers while your opponent goes Dreadnaughts or higher.

Phoenix-D

[mac5732]

SJ, I apoligize, I havn't played your P/N yet, but plan to, but on your increase in range for the WMG, is the damage the same at all ranges or less at max distance and more at less?

just some ideas mac

[tesco samoa]

Mac did you edit the ai construction vechicles.txt

If you changed that one around, it will affect the number of fighters and carriers you encounter.

I have not noticed any difference in the fighter numbers.


On the topic of weapons balancing

If I remember correctly this has been an outstanding problem for some time now.

I hope it gets resolved in the tcpip game.

Has this been play tested in the tcpip game ???

[mac5732]

Tesco, I don't believe I changed the construction txt, but I'll have to go back and check, tks

just some ideas mac

[Suicide Junkie]

The WMG is already one of the weakest weapons out there, so no, I did not reduce the damage at extreme range.

quote:

---

The problem with that both these ships were going at the maximum speed (non-Propulsion experts) allowed in standard SE4. No way to make the WMG ship faster.. and in my experience at least people tend to make a ship size go as fast as it can go. So the only way would be to stick to Battlecruisers while your opponent goes Dreadnaughts or higher.

---

Just one of the big problems that is solved by Quasi-newtonian propulsion!
Under QNP, the fastest you can go is by putting an MC on top of a big stack of engines.
A P&N escort can get going at 26 movement per turn that way, but is completely useless except as a scout (since it has only an MC & Quantum Engines). And it's range is not especially good either. It will burn up all its fuel (5200) in two or three turns, covering three systems out & coming back to resupply.
At best, A cruiser hull with MC, one WMG, and maxed out Quantum Engines could get 24 movement.
It also costs a fortune in radioactives (19,000 just for the engines) just to carry a single WMG
In the end, you'd probably aim for just 1 or 2 MP faster than your opponent, and save money.

It will be interesting to see an "arms race" applying to engines & shipspeed, only for the slow ships to come out ahead again when the fast guys get too weak.

[Andrés]

Yep weapons (and other components) aren't perfectly balanced.
IMHO WMGs should be more powerful to be again the superweapon it used to be in se2 and se3, APBs are ok or maybe a little weak, and PPB should definitely be weaker and only good weapons when the enemy doesn't have phased shields and you can take advantage of their special ability.

Newbies haven't probably seen the list with all damage Ratings ((Damage/reload time)/tonnage) that have been posted several times in these forums. Can anyone post a copy here?

I also received a few emails from Piotr Konieczny, another semi-newbie who's worried about balance. He saw my email in my site, I suggested him to take a look and post a message in these forums, but haven't seen him here yet.
He's working on a comparison chart between weapons.
Although the XLS files he sent me are a little confusing.
They're based in Hadrian Aventines's Ultimate Mod, and not in standard components. I think that's a mistake, since IMHO that mod isn't very good improving balance.
And I think some of the formulas he uses have to be changed, but it's kind of hard to find the right formulas, because there are many other factors that determine the "value" of a weapon besides their damage rating. Things such as range, special damage types, supply usage, cost, research cost, etc. and the different relative importance of each one.
And of course that copying data of every weapon is another part.

And once it's done he proposes to create a "balance mod", that instead of adding new stuff only modifies damage, cost and other values to improve balance.
Of course that would affect AI, especially the most carefully made fan-made AI that are designed to take advantage of existing unbalances.

[Phoenix-D]

"APBs are ok or maybe a little weak"

*weak*? I'd say they're overpowered, myself. Maybe the research cost balances it out a bit, but comparing them to any other weapon, the other weapon seems to get left in the cold.

Phoenix-D

[Suicide Junkie]

Okeydokey. Here are the damage Ratings for various weapons, at max tech.

APB XII: 2.1 - 1.5, normal
CSM V: 0.8, seeker
MB: 1.75, normal
AMT V: 0.625, normal
QT V: 1.25, normal
PM V: 1.0 - 0.27, seeker
PDC V: 3.25, pointdefence, +70%
PPB V: 2.0 - 1.67, phased
RB IV: 2.5, normal
IB III: 0.9, normal, +10%
WMG III: 0.67, normal, +30%
TPC V: 0.375 - 0.188, Weapons only
ID V: 1.3, engines only
IPM V: 0.625, engines only, seeker
PN V: 15.0, planets only
NB V: 5.0, planet population only
GHB V: 1.21 - 0.33, normal
SD V: 7.5, shields only
DUC V: 1.33, normal
PC V: 1.33 - 1.0, normal, organic
HPB V: 1.67 - 1.0, normal, organic
ED III: 1.5 - 0.5, normal, organic
LR III: 2.0 - 0.5, normal, organic
SP V: 1.0, seeker, organic
AG V: 0.56, normal, organic
EAG V: 1.25, normal, organic
SC X: 1.17, skip armor, crystalline
HEM III: 0.917, normal, crystalline
TDB V: 1.0 (4.0), quad2shields, temporal
TS III: 0.33, skips all, temporal
TKP V: 1.75, normal, psychic
CW III: 6.0, warhead
MSD: 10.0, one shot, RuinsTech
MID: 5.0, one shot, RuinsTech
NSP: 0.4, skips all
CT V: 0.45, ships armor, seeker
SA V: 9.0, shields only, temporal
TC III: 1.2, normal, temporal, +10%
MSG III: 0.68, normal, psychic, +20%

Acronyms expanded in order:

Anti-proton Beam, Capital Ship Missile, Meson BLaster, Antimatter Torpedo, Quantum Torpedo, Plasma Missile, PointDefence Cannon, Phased Polaron Beam, Ripper Beam, Incinerator Beam, Wave Motion Gun, Tachyon Projection Cannon, Ionic Disperser, Ionic pulse missile, Planetary Napalm, Neutron bomb, Graviton Hellbore, Shield Depleter, Depleted Uranium Cannon, Plasma charge, Hyperplasma bolt, Electric Discharge, Lightning gun, Seeking Parasite, Acid Globule, Enveloping Acid Globule, Shard Cannon, High Energy Magnifier, Time Distortion Burst, Temporal shifter, Telekinetic projector, Cobalt Warhead, Massive Shield depleter/Ionic disperser, Null-spaceProjector, Crystalline torpedo,Shield Accelerator ,Tachyon Cannon ,MentalSingularityGenerator